Billy Graham's Legacy in Serious Question

[Stephen Fox]

His Death Bed conversion last night on Fox News will not cut it. For beginners here is a copy of an email I just sent extended family members:

I am now reading Steven Davis Dallas 1963 about the rabid Jesse Helms Baptist WA Criswell who ruined George W. Truett's ministry there. Graham was a member in the Church of John Birchers and now his membership is FBC Spartanburg where the Tea Party Reins.


Graham was subject of a symposium at his alma mater in September and he didn't go over very well.


His Death Bed Conversion last night on Fox News must become evident in his Grandson Tully at DJ Kennedy's church in Coral Gables as well as his Roy Moore son Franklin and his Daughter Anne Graham Lotz who about spent the Trustee budget of Baylor into penury her short stay there.


More links and facts at bl.com


Stephen M. Fox, Gaffney S.C 62-78; accepted Jesus at Truett Memorial 59 Hayesville S.C.


Also see upcoming blog on Graham and Prentice at www.foxofbama.blogspot.com

[William Thornton]

I would make the wild conjecture that Billy Graham will survive the criticism from one Stephen Fox who was banned from the Collinsville liberry.

[David Flick]

I would make the wild conjecture that Billy Graham will survive the criticism from one Stephen Fox who was banned from the Collinsville liberry.

He will, indeed, survive Foxy criticisms...

[Stephen Fox]

Has one College Graduate and she told me the night of the wedding of the Football Coach's Daughter to Pastor John Morgan's son voting me out was ridiculous; as did the Bride herself on another occasion.

It's just not me with reservations about Billy Graham, it is Steven Miller, Marshall Frady, the Worthen woman at UNC and Randall Balmer of Dartmouth. So Thornton and Flick are not up to speed on this one.

See the Ken Garfield of Graham's hometown Charlotte Observer in the Nov Baps Today.

And Look at where the Children of Graham are, almost to a person hardwired to the Tea Party.

Graham's full page photo ad helped bring Roy Moore to the Bama Supreme Court last Fall. Ask Brent Walker or Robert Parham how fond they are of that.

Read Dallas 63. Graham went from the Birchers in FBC Dallas to Trey Gowdy's Tea Party at FBC Spartanburg, S.C. Death bed conversions do not remedy that pilgrimage arc that endorsed Charles Stanley for president of SBC at a most pivotal moment along the way.

[Stephen Fox]

This is Stephen Fox, frequent contributor to baptistlife.com. What Leonard says is true as far as it goes. I think Marshall Frady in his 79 bio of Graham has a more explicit and honest take on Graham with a comparison to Will Campbell of roughly the same error. And Randall Balmer has some strong tweaks on the Graham legacy in his upcoming bio of President Carter. Leonard is too wise to let it be lost on the abp audience It was Fox News the BGEA chose for its last wide Graham message, and Graham's Grandson Tully Tchvidjian who was on three person panel with James Dobson, a Nixonian event in the worst tradition if I ever saw one.

I am looking forward to the collection of essays from the recent World of Billy Graham conference at Wheaton, especially Nixon scholar Steven Smith's remembrance of Marshall Frady Take, "Through Welkin Eyes"

http://abpnews.com/opinion/item/8994-bi ... oK5PdrnaM8

[Stephen Fox]

http://www.billygraham.org/articlepage. ... cleid=9786

[Stephen Fox]

Here is where Balmer can refine Miller and bring Martin Marty up to speed

http://hnn.us/article/25521

[Stephen Fox]

if I knew I forgot, but IRS investigated Billy's father in law Nelson Bell cause 200,000 roughly the mailing list at the time of Christianity Today, tracts were sent from Weaverville, N.C. in 1960, anti Catholic tracts opposing President Kennedy.

I guess Billy got it from WA Criswell at FBC Dallas!

[Ed Pettibone]

if I knew I forgot, but IRS investigated Billy's father in law Nelson Bell cause 200,000 roughly the mailing list at the time of Christianity Today, tracts were sent from Weaverville, N.C. in 1960, anti Catholic tracts opposing President Kennedy.

I guess Billy got it from WA Criswell at FBC Dallas!

Ed: Of course Foxy, you know that Dr. Nelson Bell was not Baptist. And BTW, does your sister accept responsibility for every thing you do or say, remember you have introduced some of us to her.

[Sandy]

I think if we took a roll call of the regular names Stephen drops in his posts, this one would earn close to 100% attendance. I see Randall Balmer, Martin Marty, Will Campbell, Marshall Frady, Roy Moore, Trey Gowdy, W.A. Criswell, Charles Stanley, Anne Graham Lotz, Franklin Graham, of course Billy, the John Birch Society, FBC Spartanburg. Kate Campbell is missing, along with any mention of Furman University, and Jesse Helms.

Graham's full page photo ad helped bring Roy Moore to the Bama Supreme Court last Fall. Ask Brent Walker or Robert Parham how fond they are of that.

That's a joke, right? Moore is the most prominent extremist right winger in Alabama. I'm sure that his appointment was a done deal regardless of anything that Graham would have done.

"And Look at where the Children of Graham are, almost to a person hardwired to the Tea Party."

"if I knew I forgot, but IRS investigated Billy's father in law Nelson Bell cause 200,000 roughly the mailing list at the time of Christianity Today, tracts were sent from Weaverville, N.C. in 1960, anti Catholic tracts opposing President Kennedy."

I don't see what his father in law has to do with anything related to his legacy. As far as where his children are politically, I think Franklin's organization got burned pretty badly in 2008 by contributors who backed away because of what they perceived as political activity that was too overt, and he toned things down quite a bit. Many of his big financial supporters are African Americans who are also Democrats and supporters of the President, and I think the downturn his organization experienced was a lesson learned, and as far as the tea party bigots go, I don't see much association.

The headline of this thread is correct, Billy Graham's legacy is in serious question, but only by one Stephen Fox. I can't even google up another blog on this theme.

[Stephen Fox]

And a less real than apparent consensus never to return

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/11/0 ... ican-icon/

[Sandy]

Add a new name to Stephen's list, Molly Worthen. Yet another self-appointed, pseudo-intellectual "expert" on Evangelical Christianity from outside and far off.

[Stephen Fox]

For a person who on occasion makes sense on this board, it is sad to see Sandy's resentment and stubbornness take him som so afr down on the Molly Worthen Matter. In her corner of serious academic work is Mark Noll, Baylor's Olson, Dan Williams who wrote God's Own Party while at Newt Gingrich's West Georgia and Darren Dochuck.

I guess Sandy thinks the think tank at FBC Spartanburg S.C. and Nelson Price's Shorter College along with the Muslim Brothers who occupy two presidencies at former Ga Baptist Schools in Good standing is the antidote; along with whomever Judge Pressler can drum up with the Birch Society or whats left of Jesse Helms Pioneer Club.

[Stephen Fox]

http://www.amazon.com/And-God-Said-Bill ... k129642-20

Even Better: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschae ... -prophecy/

[Sandy]

For a person who on occasion makes sense on this board, it is sad to see Sandy's resentment and stubbornness take him som so afr down on the Molly Worthen Matter. In her corner of serious academic work is Mark Noll, Baylor's Olson, Dan Williams who wrote God's Own Party while at Newt Gingrich's West Georgia and Darren Dochuck.

I guess Sandy thinks the think tank at FBC Spartanburg S.C. and Nelson Price's Shorter College along with the Muslim Brothers who occupy two presidencies at former Ga Baptist Schools in Good standing is the antidote; along with whomever Judge Pressler can drum up with the Birch Society or whats left of Jesse Helms Pioneer Club.

When it comes to Biblical interpretation and values, I would certainly trust FBC Spartanburg over an outsider who has expressed a complete lack of understanding of the spiritual side of Christian faith, like Molly Worthen. I don't know Nelson Price very well, but seems he's got Shorter back where most Georgia Baptists want it to be. When it comes to matters of Christian expression, intellect is not only not enough, it often gets things on the wrong track. I'd suggest you give I Corinthians 1 and 2 a fresh look before you get into your read-through of a couple of Francis Shaeffer's works.

[Stephen Fox]

Thank you very much.

It saddens me to see Sandy embarass himself so much but he doesnt seem capable of stopping himself

http://prospect.org/article/francis-and ... edecessors

Interesting to see this take as compared to Bill Oreilly's talking points last Thursday night, Fox News, the preferred outlet of FBC Spartanburg in the public square!

[Sandy]

Thank you very much.

It saddens me to see Sandy embarass himself so much but he doesnt seem capable of stopping himself

http://prospect.org/article/francis-and ... edecessors

Interesting to see this take as compared to Bill Oreilly's talking points last Thursday night, Fox News, the preferred outlet of FBC Spartanburg in the public square!

Oh, so you've surveyed FBC Spartanburg and you know that the congregation prefers Fox News?

Do you realize how ridiculous you sound sometimes?

[Stephen Fox]

To the commentary Religion not for sale at goupstate.com

You got it right about spiritual discernment. Exactly Mark Noll's point in a great New Republic review a few years ago, easy google for Williams and Dochuk. One of the chief culprits is FBC Spartanburg S.C. who got it wrong in the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention. Now it is a base for Trey Gowdy's Tea Party. Read Noll. Read Molly Worthen The Apostles of Reason......Billy Graham mighta meant well but the unintended consequences are disastrous. Jesus didn't ride into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday to make way for the Koch Brothers!!!!

Had chat early this morn with Debbie on phone, FBC Sburg pastor Wilton secretary about Trey Gowdy on Fox News last night re Andrew Sullivan statement about winking at milder versions.

[Stephen Fox]

The 2013 bio of Cash has tempered my overall take on Billy Gee a little for the good. May say more later, but for those of you who can get your hands on the bio go to the index and read the ten or so pages on Johnny and Billy. Billy comes out pretty well, even makes the picture section.

I had not realized Cash was at the infamous Knoxville crusade of May 1970 right after Kent State but not sure he was on podium same night as Nixon.

[David Flick]

Thank you very much.

It saddens me to see Sandy embarass himself so much but he doesnt seem capable of stopping himself

http://prospect.org/article/francis-and ... edecessors

Interesting to see this take as compared to Bill Oreilly's talking points last Thursday night, Fox News, the preferred outlet of FBC Spartanburg in the public square!

Oh, so you've surveyed FBC Spartanburg and you know that the congregation prefers Fox News?

Do you realize how ridiculous you sound sometimes?



Amen to that...

[Sandy]

Well, Stephen recommends a lot of reading, most of it by godless, atheistic authors , so I thought that if he was going to discuss Francis Schaeffer, he should at least read a couple of his works. So far, I don't think he's taken me up on that, even though I have read some of what he recommended.

[Stephen Fox]

I passed David Flick and Sandy in knowledge long time ago.

I don't think Flick has read anything worthwhile since his local hometown paper on the HS championship wrestling tourney when his Grandson graduated; and as for Sandy, life is short, the consensus is in on Francis Schaeffer and how he missed the Enlightenment and I got better things to read; that I did find it amusing SWBTS had him reading Francis three decades ago.

[Sandy]

I doubt that there's a seminary in this country that doesn't require its students to read something from Schaeffer, even if they aren't evangelical, and they read him critically. It would be interesting to be in a discussion in a class in one of the more liberal seminaries as students discover that Schaeffer was a lot smarter and more articulate than a lot of their professors and heroes.

It's your turn, Stephen. If you're as intellectual as you claim, you shouldn't be scared of any of Schaeffer's works. Might do you some good. All that "enlightenment" slant and one sided stuff you recommend has probably softened the left side of your brain. You need some real meat to sink your intellectual teeth into. Worthen, Balmer, Noll, Frady, lightweights compared to Schaeffer. He'd chew them up and spit them out and walk away laughing about it.

[Stephen Fox]

From the ABPnews.com story yesterday on Pressler's latest remembrance of the origins of the Takeover

“Well, we’re all out looking for him and I turn the corner and there he is,” Patterson said. “And I said, ‘Vines, thank goodness I found you.’ It was about 8:30 the morning of the convention; he’s got to nominate him at 2:00. I said, ‘You’re nominating Charles.’ And Vines says, ‘I’m doing what?’ and I said ‘You’re nominating Charles Stanley for president.’ He said, ‘Charles said he wasn’t going,’ and I said, ‘He changed his mind.’ I said, ‘He’s going, and you’re nominating him.’ He said, ‘I’m not even for him,’ and I said: ‘It doesn’t make any difference. You’re nominating him.’”

Pressler said he received unexpected encouragement when a friend returned from a conference with a message for him from Francis Schaeffer, an evangelical theologian whose writing influenced a number of young preachers who went on to become leaders in the Religious Right.

“I’m shocked that Dr. Schaeffer would know who I was,” Pressler said. The message was, “You tell him that I pray for him every day, because the future of evangelical Christianity in America depends on what happens in the Southern Baptist Convention.”

“If that’s what Dr. Francis Schaeffer believed, then that jarred me,” Pressler said. “And it meant that winning was not optional; winning was mandatory.”

[David Flick]

I passed David Flick and Sandy in knowledge long time ago.

You're the only person on the planet who gives a hoot about such things... I couldn't care less how intelligent you think you are...

I don't think Flick has read anything worthwhile since his local hometown paper on the HS championship wrestling tourney when his Grandson graduated; and as for Sandy, life is short, the consensus is in on Francis Schaeffer and how he missed the Enlightenment and I got better things to read; that I did find it amusing SWBTS had him reading Francis three decades ago.

If I chose my reading material on the basis of what you consider "worthwhile," I'd be a very miserable person...