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Ed: In his Baptist Ways published by Judson Press, 2003, Bill Leonard names five Philadelphia area churches that he says founded the "first enduring Baptist Association in America in 1707" as First Church (Phily), Lower Dublin, Piscataway (NJ), Middletown (NJ) and the Welch Track church (Delaware)

I have an ABC Pastor friend, (Bruce Johnson) who disputes the inclusion of FBC Philadelphia and the omission of the Cohansey BC located at Roadstown NJ. The Encyclopedia of New Jersey Published by Rutgers University Press supports Bruce's contention. Bruce once pastored the Cohansey church.

I have no idea who got the thing going in 1707, and I'm not at all sure the prior activity in Rhode Island should be so lightly dismissed — though perhaps if you meant "the first enduring Baptist Association of local churches in America" instead of "the first enduring Baptist in America" there might be a case for putting Philly first. I believe it was FBC Philly that, in the 1700s (though for what specific span of years I do not recall) regularly met for worship in common with the Presbyterians. The congregations met separately only when they celebrated the Lord's Supper, performed baptisms, or held their congregational business meetings. The implications of this for the effect of Calvinism on Northern Baptist theological leanings may be worth exploring. BTW I have no certain recollection of where I read about this stuff; Vedder?

Thanks, Ed. That history doesn't make clear (as did the one I read a long time ago and have forgotten the source of) that while the Baptists and Presbyterians and Baptists shared a roof, the Baptists also routinely joined in the services of the Presbyterians (except, as I noted, when the ordinances or polity were at issue). This presumably made it unnecessary for the Baptist pastor to attend services most of the time (so he could continue to minister full-time, with only occasional trips to Philly, to his New Jersey congregation). I'd be interested to know how long the cohabitation lasted (your source is vague; my sense of long ago is it was more than a year anyway)...

Ed: I do not doubt that you read it somewhere and I do not doubt that it happened in various places including some short period at the First Baptist Church of Philadelphia. Yet in 2013 we have Baptist Churches in our Capital Area Baptist Association here in Upstate NY that share space, worship and staff time with Presbyterians and others with Methodist and some with the UCC. In fact we have a member at Burnthills Baptist who is the Music director at a nearby Presbyterian church and that is where Trudy preached her trial sermon for this church's pulpit committee.

The pastors of such churches for the most part struggle with trying to meld polity and doctrine. I pray for them but do not envy them.

My friend Bruce Johnson still wants to know how the Cohansey Church gets over looked as one of the founding churches of the Philadelphia Association. I wish I had thought about this when I saw Leonard in Greensboro this summer.

Leonard did a great job in Nov Baps Today with is tribute to the Father of Linda McKinnish Bridges!

Ed: Thanks to R Vaughn for the conformation of Bruce Johnson's list of the original churches of the Philadelphia Association.

I'd be curious to see how Leon McBeth covers this in his Baptist Heritage. I'll have to wait until I get back home to read it, I'm in Virginia at the moment.

I have a 1983 report of the General Six-Principle Baptist Conference of Rhode Island in my minute books collection. It lists that meeting as the 313th annual conference. Assuming this counting is done as most associations do, it would have been organized in 1671 (subtract the annual number and then add one). That's 36 years older than the Philadelphia Baptist Association. I don't think, though, that there are any surviving records from that period.

I don't have McBeth's book at hand. On a preview at Google Books I can see that he says "The important Philadelphia Baptist Association...was the first organized Baptist association in America." But he also points out this can be debated and "The question turns upon one's definition of an association..." He (and others as well) mentions that the Philadelphia area Baptist churches met together for fellowship and discussion as early as 1688 (still 17 years later than the Rhode Island Conference), but that the body was not formally organized until 1707. And that is part of his argument against the Rhode Island Yearly -- that it was only a fellowship meeting and not formally organized (not sure I agree, but don't think there is enough evidence to prove it one way or another).

On what I could get hits on in the Google Book preview, I did not find any mention of the names of the churches that organized the Philadelphia Association.

Looked in the McBeth's book this afternoon, and didn't find that he directly commented on the churches in the formation of the Philadelphia Baptist Association (could have missed it). Christian says this, "The brethren who constituted the association came from Lower Dublin (Pennepeck), Middletown, Piscataqua, Cohansey, and Welsh Tract. The Philadelphia congregation, though giving its name to the association, is not represented as a constituent member, because it was regarded as a branch of the Lower Dublin church." (Vol. 2. p. 149)

Ed, I noticed in Baptist Ways that Leonard footnotes Maring's 1964 Baptists in New Jersey as his source. I don't have Maring's book to compare, but I would say it was a mistake to use such a recent source when earlier sources would have been better. You might (or might not) find interesting my review of Leonard's book here:

Thanks, Ed, for sharing your perspective. I wrote that 8 years ago, so I don't know if I would see some of that differently if I read it now. It's hard to go back and even remember things that long ago!

As to why I chose to use "Mr." rather than "Dr." I don't specifically remember anything about that either. But I hardly ever, if ever, refer to anyone as "Dr" when writing in a religious context.

Thanks for the Email. I'll send you a note about the CBF and NBC programs.