misunderstanding the Civil War

[Stephen Fox]

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arc ... ar/277022/

[Rvaughn]

Thanks for the link, Stephen. Looks like an interesting read.

[Stephen Fox]

http://www.studio360.org/popup_player/#

Hit play in the block with the Flag in upper left corner when you click on link above

[Stephen Fox]

And likely your town Library too if it is below the Mason Dixon and East of the Mississippi and has a population of less than 7,000 or a mindset like Gadsden, Alabama, Spartanburg South Carolina or Tullahoma Tennessee

Fascinating reading. Read this excerpt on the Daughters of the Confederacy and the corollary group the Sons, which my friend John Killian, president of the SBC of Bama holds in such high esteem

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/16/the_sou ... civil_war/

See the Collinsville History thread for more particulars of how this ideology prevails in many sly ways in the town; even inflecting an Auburn project of this last summer, Auburn where Bruce Gourley got his PHD

[Stephen Fox]

I Hope if William Thornton cant make his way all the way through this review, he at least can scroll down toward the end to the Empire of slavery and the Cotton Kingdom and Django Unchained. Will give him more context to understand The Butler as it has already given me insight into the Collinsville Historical Association and Their Gems of The Valley.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1140 ... nd-slavery

[Stephen Fox]

For those of you who missed it Bruce entry in Baps Today for February, maybe January, about Southerners 1864 couching abolitionists as the Anti- Christ is a strong statement, They invoke the word apotheosis, a good Faulkner and Frady word.

Go back and find it. One of the highlights of Bruce Series in Baps Today Civil War from Baptist perspective 150 years later.

[Bruce Gourley]

[Sandy]

I'd be interested in setting along side the Baptist perspectives, those of other Christian denominations and leaders in the South at the same time. I haven't read a whole lot on this particular theme, but it seems that as the war developed in its later stages, especially after Gettysburg, it was not just the Baptists who resorted to apocalyptic descriptions of Northern abolitionists.

I'd also be curious about the influence of Baptists in the South in regard to the overall Christian community during the Civil War. Most of what I've read leads me to conclude that while they were growing fairly numerous, they were more predominant among the poorer, more "back woods" elements of the population, and not particularly influential in terms of the overall religious flavor of the South, or of its government entities during the war.

There was obviously not a lot of understanding that being "abolitionist" in the North did not always translate into humanitarian action on behalf of escaped slaves or free African Americans. The small community where I live has a lot of history related to the underground railroad. The Quaker meeting house, which is about 30 steps across a small apple orchard out my back door, had a double basement, where slaves could sleep, eat, and wait for help to be taken on to the next station on their way to Buffalo and Canada. In much of what I have read about it, the Quakers, along with some Mennonites, and a scattering of other individuals from other faiths, probably are the most prolific humanitarians of the Civil War in the North.

[Bruce Gourley]

Sandy, Baptists of the South vied with Methodists for the title of largest religious denomination in the Confederacy. Virtually all of the founding fathers of the SBC present at the 1845 Augusta meeting were slaveholders, although only a minority of white Southern Baptists were slave holders in either 1845 or 1860. But among SBC leadership (denominational agencies, state leaders, newspaper editors, etc) slave holders were highly represented, and many (perhaps most) FBC churches and many rural SB churches tended to have their fair share or large slave owners as members. Of the 11 Confederate states, two had Baptist governors at the beginning of the war: Georgia and Texas. Baptists were among political leaders in those states as well as the other Deep South states and Virginia, and a few Confederate government officials were Baptists. So, Baptist slave holders were the exception, but their influence was considerable within the denomination. Also, more slaves were Baptist by far than any other denomination (another discussion entirely).

As to abolitionism, most Northern Baptists were abolitionists it appears; although there are no hard stats on the actual ratio of abolitionists to non-abolitionists, most state and associational Baptist groups across the North during the war expressed abolitionist beliefs and sentiments.

Historically, most Baptists North and South were opposed or ambivalent to slavery prior to about 1820, after which point Baptists of the South moved decidedly into the pro-slavery camp. Prior to 1820, Baptists truly were outsiders in the South and skeptical of elites, very few were slaveholders, they largely shared a biblical view of the equality of humanity, and hence anti-slavery views -- or simple ambivalence -- was quite natural.

[Stephen Fox]

Was talking about all this last night with local longtime HS History proff here in NE Bama. Shared the link on his facebook wall just a few minutes ago.

I trust, Bruce, by now you have googled the Lincoln's long game by Delbanco in New Repbublic. Walter Johnson's River of Dark Dreams is a must read for you, not only endorsed by Delbanco but by Furman grad Tomiko Brown-Nagin now on the Harvard Faculty.

FTR the first master in 12 Yrs a 'Slave was a Baptist preacher according to the book I recently read. The movie is a must view for both Gourley and Sanders.

Everytime I see the word apotheosis my antenna go up. Thanks, Bruce, for posting the link; already combusting further to good effect.

[Sandy]

If Baptists were as numerous as Methodists in the South just prior to the Civil War, their presence in the political leadership of the Confederacy was not nearly as large or influential, not even as much as Presbyterians or Episcopalians. And I think it is fair to point out that the Baptist governor of Texas at the time of its seccession from the union was Sam Houston, who was a Southern Unionist, resisted forming a convention to secede, including vetoing the original bill, and then refused to concede that the convention had the authority to join the confederacy. Ultimately, his refusal to take the oath of allegiance to the Confederate states led to his removal as governor. Neither his successor, Lt. Gov. Edward Clark, nor the next elected governor, F.R. Lubbock, were Baptists. Most of my reading has concluded that Southern Baptists, particularly the churches associated with the convention, were more of an influence in the preservation of Southern culture and heritage during Reconstruction than they were before or during the war, and that's where their theological perspective was skewed with regard to human rights and the issue of slavery. It is, ironically, Southern sympathy with that perspective that contributed to the growth of Southern Baptist churches, as well as to its ecumenical isolation.

Though Civil War history is one of my hobbies, there's not a whole pile of information accumulated on the religious involvement of leaders on either side of the war, other than a passing reference in some cases to pre-war life. A good portion of the Confederate leadership was Episcopalian, including both Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis. I wonder if the post-war shame and remorse over the hostility and brutality of the war caused Christian leaders to censor the involvement of leaders, particularly those of the confederacy, in their churches. I tend to think that most Southern Christians, regardless of their denominational affiliation, were Confederate supporters before and during the war, and accepted some of the beliefs that resulted, including that abolitionist positions were "antichrist," and slavery was Biblically justifiable, but most of the mainline Protestants had a mechanism in the denomination that contributed to pulling them back and reforming those views after the war. The independent, autonomous nature of Baptist churches and conventions prevented that from happening among them.

Northern Christians were not unified in either their abolitionist views or their sympathy and assistance to escaping slaves and free men. The Quakers were organized to the point of deliberate deception of law enforcement officials in their efforts to help slaves who had escaped. There wasn't wholesale objection to slave-catching laws that were passed in the North, which essentially forced slaves to go all the way to Canada in the period just prior to hostilities, and which had the effect of confirming the belief that slaves were the property of their owners, not entitled to human rights.

[Stephen Fox]

Could use the refining fire of

Christine Lee Heyrman's Southern Cross

and Paul Harvey's grand Moses Jesus and the the Trickster which comes with the Blessing of--here again cause for anxiety in Ed--Baylor's gift to Mercer in the Presidency of Bill Underwood.

[Bruce Gourley]

Sandy, again, Baptists of the South were on the ascendancy during the Civil War era; not in proportional prominence as were Episcopalians, of course, but nonetheless ascendant and with notable influence. As to the postwar era, white Baptists and most other Christians remained convinced of white supremacy, and many, quite perhaps most, yet believed blacks should be slaves. The Lost Cause mythology, complete with white supremacy and black subjugation, was popular throughout the white Christian South for the remainder of the century. Baptists clearly moved to the forefront, denominationally speaking in the South, during this era.

As for the North, I am only speaking for Baptists in regards to abolitionist views. In the broader perspective, Christianity at large birthed, nurtured and led the burgeoning abolitionist movement. This is not to say that all Christians of the North embraced abolitionism, obviously.

As to Sam Houston, you are correct; I've written several articles about his courageous stand and his subsequent political banishment. And if you figure there were four major denominations in the South on the cusp of the war (Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Baptists and Methodists), that leaves a bit less than 3 governorships per denomination (assuming no minor denominations are represented and no non-Christians are represented). But if even one governor were of a minor faith or no faith or Catholic, then Baptists would be par for the course with the other major denominations. Governor Brown of Georgia, by the way, notoriously resisted, in a number of instances, Jefferson Davis and the Confederate government during the war.

As to other politicians and military leaders, Lincoln was raised a Baptist in the North while in the South Stonewall Jackson attended a Baptist church as a boy (from whence his love of war grew -- from reading the Old Testament); in addition many lesser generals during the war, on both sides, were Baptists.

[Sandy]

[Stephen Fox]

Faust is President of Harvard. My friend Sam Hodges book Letters to Amanda was mentioned in the PBS version of her book The Republic of Suffering. I was disappointed she did not mention Walter Johnson's book River of Dark Dreams in her review here; but I am delighted to be acquainted with one of her Harvard colleagues, Tomiko Brown-Nagin, Furman grad, native of Greenwood, South Carolina

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archive ... ry/?page=2