Baptists and the American Civil War (A New Website)

[Samuel]

Slavery existed in the North the same as the South. The Confederacy started in 1776 by the original founding fathers and that government lasted until 1788. The USA became a constitutional government in ~1788 with great objection of Ben Franklin and Tom Jefferson.

The civil war was not fought over slavery. I have never heard a professor in school or any university so it was. In fact one said if you put the civil war was fought over slavery it's an automatic failing grade.

Slaves on the run had to go to Canada.

[ET]

[Haruo]

Thanks, ET. I couldn't have said it better.

It's true that there had been slavery in the north, but it was never the driving economic force nor the underlying support of wealth that it was in the south. In the north it was mainly domestic servants of the well-to-do, rather than huge masses of field hands, that constituted the slave population.

[Gene Scarborough]

Gentlemen--

I stand behind my contention that slavery was not the real cause of the Civil War--anymore than "freedom" is the reason we are in the MIddle East now.

The slavery of the Irish was as real up North as it was down South. Had they not had all that "cannon fodder" to throw against us, we would likely have won the battles. Lee and the Army of the Virginia were almost sitting on the steps of the Capital in the early stages of the war.

Here is my take on all wars: They are about greed and ownership of land!

Ask any Native American about how courteous we are and respectful of who was here first!!!!!

I live on the shores of the Pamlico River where the first town in NC was established = Bath. I can see how the early settlers came up this river from the Pamlico Sound by way of the Oregon Inlet. They probably saw bare-breasted dark skinned women working at menial duties while men hunted and fished all day to their heart's content. Their women were their "slaves." The river was teaming with fish and the game was plenteous. Had they had any sense at all, they would have joined the tribes and enjoyed the tobacco and corn they raised in addition to nature's bounty! English women were, shall we say, quite reserved!

Instead, we called them "heathens" and took it all away. We banished them to lands far less nice that the white man did not want! In this single image lies the real nature of the New World. White men wanted more land and wealth. England coveted the loblolly pines of Wilmington, NC, for gigantic ships and other maritime wares such as tar and terpentine--hence the "Tar Heel State" nomenclature. Southern planters and land grant owners took what was not theirs in the beginning and trounced, with guns and explosives, the Native Americans who had only bows and arrows to defend a land which had no deeds attached!

As Wall Street declared, "It's all about greed---and greed is good!"

[ET]

I can say that all wars are caused by human sin if you really want to boil it down to the most basic cause of all human misery. However, such philosophical and theological pontifications don't change the fact that the primary political and sociological cause of the American Civil War was slavery. If you wish to claim greed, then I would argue that the Southern power brokers' greed lay in their ability to own another human being, force him to work for the wants and desires of the slaveholders and to enrich themselves at the cost of another human being's life and liberty. So, yes, I could agree that "greed" was the cause of the war in that sense.

However dismal the working conditions in Northern factories, it still remains that they were free men and women. They were not the legal property of another human being and could not be sold at will by their employer to someone else. Nor does it matter if they were cannon fodder for Northern armies. That's got nothing to do with why the reason behind the war.

Lastly, the cultural clash between white civilization and native American civilization is another topic entirely. It certainly wasn't the first time in history that two cultures clashed. I'm not sure just what outcome one should expect when a culture based on land ownership and private property comes into contact with ones largely based on communal concepts. It's got nothing directly to do with the cause of the Civil War, however.

[Jim]

[Gene Scarborough]

I think we are on a good discussion of what makes things tick!

Into such, it would be wise to insert something of the Jesus way.

He came into a world of the same ploys with slavery in existance and the Pharisees in control of the Temple. Jesus saw through the smoke-and-mirrors to reach out to the poor and dispossessed. His way involved forgiveness and love of enemies as well as treating all of mankind as something God created and forgave.

If we can ever modify our greed with a Jesus attitude of "love one another as God loves you," we might just survive and continue on this earth which God created. Otherwise, our gigantic earth moving and tree cutting machines will continue to de-forest South American and pollute rivers and streams to the point the earth, itself, eliminates us or sends us back to the caves of our human ancestors!

I have often wondered at the power and wonder man possessed and housed in the libraries of Alexandria which the barbarian hords destroyed as they took over that corner of this world. Could it be that the Tower of Babel story in Genesis is one of a gigantic rocket intended by mankind to reach and control God????

All I do know is that God created / man wanted to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil / we were banished from the Garden of Eden due to our own greed for God's special knowledge.

[ET]

Gene, I agree we've reached some consensus on the "root cause" of all sorts of various human evils, but that doesn't do us much good during this 150th Anniversary year of the start of the conflict that is THE pivotal moment of American history, next only to the Revolution. There won't be a tremendous amount of folks who wish to use the conflict as a jumping-off point into theological discussions, but there will be many who will attempt to spin the conflict into something other than about slavery for whatever reason. I don't think that can be done historically or accurately, particularly given the number of statements regarding slavery in the various state secession documents.

[Gene Scarborough]

ET---

We are both on the same track in many ways. I'm pointing out the "other things" involved as root causes of the Civil War. You are right in that the slavery issue was consistent from state to state.

Now that the slaves are free and fending for themselves, I find them often enslaved to drugs and crime as well as welfare. Just because a person is an official slave does not mean he is truely free!

We also need to acknowledge that the wise slave owner used punishment as a last resort to get work from the laborers while "Uncle Tom's Cabin" which was used to depict slavery was as much distorted as anything at the core of the Civil War.

Oh, by the way, my family never owned slaves----we were the slaves to a tenant farm existence on my father's side and child labor existence as the daughter of an SC land-owing farmer of 280 acres of red clay hillsides. At least, "poor cousin Andrew" (as designated by his family members) got through the Depression / lived in the old farm house to his and grandmother's deaths / ultimately those "poor child laborers" split just under $1M as those acres outside Greenville, SC, sold for 15-acre "mini-farms." My mother has a more decent retirement income thanks to having been a child laborer!

[Ed Pettibone]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed--

Life is fickle and as much wealth is by good fortune as good and hard work. As the Bible says, "The wheat will be separated from the tares." The winds of fortune is the separater. "It's not the height of the gale, but the set of the sail which gets us through the storm."

The Civil War deprived many a planter from his land. The slaves were given some / Carpetbaggers took much / the whole system fell into ruin when the man who knew how to manage slaves and land was forcebly set to the side. They had no clue of the proper ways to plant nor the best things to do in order to be profitable. When the brain was separated from the brawn of civil order by the Civil War, much land eventually came back to those who could manage it. Otherwise, many slaves and Carpetbaggers managed to keep the land, but were not really happy with it. It involved wise and hard work to succeed.

Uncle Tom's Cabin presented a picture of slave abuse. There certainly was some, but the majority of slave owners treated their slaves as members of the family. Even today, in my south. black women who helped raise the children sit with the family at the funeral. God help anyone who is critical of such mutual respect! It is an unspoken rule of real Southern culture. Sometimes whites, like my maternal Grandaddy, sound like racists, but are the first to come with cigarettes and a lawyer when his tenant shot and killed his wife drunk on a Saturday night!

My paternal grandfather Scarborough was reputed to be the wealthiest man in Madison County, Ga, by being the official "brewer of spirits" for the Federal troops stationed down here before the Civil War. A mysterious death with possible foul play involved sentenced my Grandfather Scarborough to the tenant farm. He could remember as a child playing with chests full of Confederate money then worthless. The bottom line is that the tides of war and economy can turn riches to rags overnight!!! HOWEVER, the human spirit of honesty and decency can give you a legacy even money can't buy!

[Gene Scarborough]

The 280 acre farm of my mother's father was bought and paid for with the sweat of the brow.

Grandaddy Williams was a man who could pass for General Lee as he sat on his porch on Sundays. He had been active in his childhood church, but some accused him as a young Treasurer of someting so severe he told organized religion to "stick it where the sun don't shine."

After his death I found out he was the first County Agent for Pickens County, SC. His farm was a picture of soil conservation, The gullied hillsides were properly terraced and his bottom land was his favorite spot. Us grandchildren roamed those hills and woods and rode the tractors. I well remember them with lights on poisoning for bowl weevels into the late night hours. We sat on the porch as grandaddy told stories of his childhood and the tractors, driven by his 2 sons, traversed the hills.

Grandaddy almost lost it in the Depression, but a family loan bailed him out. Here is the secret of his success: hard work / his wife's family with enough money to loan / not just a farmer, but a soil conservationist who knew his land and its fertilization needs. I walked with him to get the cows back in on a Sunday morning. Cows seem to always pick Sunday mornings to get out.

His worst word started with "S" and was reserved for only the most serious situations. When I have equipment problems, I often use his techniques to solve them. In fact, my first memories of tree work was going with him and my uncles to cut down a big oak for winter firewood. He gave me a work ethic and fair-minded outlook on life which serves me even today!

Southern born / southern bred / I will one day be "Southern dead!" Don't mess with the South, my brother!!!!!

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Gene: you are about 100 years behind with your regionalism. 47 for sure.

[Gene Scarborough]

Aw shucks---you mean Miss Scarlotte is dead??????

I went to Pitty Pat's Porch just a few year ago and still stand when they play "Dixie."

The South has already risen again and you yankees love it!!!!

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Down South we make note if you were born north of the Mason-Dixon line. I have grown more and will gladly declare someone on the south side of somewhere to be a "southerner"---- as long as they are nice.

Us Southerners love Yankees because they will come to Bath and pay 4 times what us locals will for a house and still think they saved money.

They will come down I-95 where Rocky Mount is half way between NYC and Miami and spend the night. Before I-95 we had US-301 running right through the middle of Rocky Mount. Most are nice and they all have plenty of money!

We have a special treat at the Stuckey's near Hickory Baptist Church where I served. It is the Whitakers Exit with Hickory Meadows Gold Course, owned by an active family at Hickory. There, we have Porcupine Eggs for sale. They are in a little jewlery box with cotton to protect them and keep them warm for hatching.

Us local hunters come by and remove the cuckleburrs from our clothing and the dogs to provide a steady supply of eggs!!!!

We love good Yankees and note a difference beteen a Yankee and a **** Yankee. I'll let you guess on that one.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed--

I already see you are picking up on "southern English." It, along with our accents, enthralled the lovely Minnesota ladies in the Ministers Life home office. Us Southern gentlemen who have not forgotten civility make things nice in the South. The folks at Binghamton loved it when I preached there / that's part of Billy Graham's charm!!

We are smart enough to take tax money for good highways and give folks in nice autos the chance to pass through and drop a few bucks. I wish a few more knew the meaning of "drive right except to pass."

Funny story from I-95 years ago when a sudden March snow storm coming from the south dumped some 4' of snow on the east coast highways---and had traffic trapped in snow drifts. It seems down around Florence, SC, a farmer brought his John Deere out to move cars from the snow. He was about to hook a Cadillac when the New Jersey gold-chain-around-his-neck idiot jumped out yelling, "Don't you mess up my $40,000 car with that tractor!" To which the SC farmer said, "Well, sucker, if you don't want me to hook up my $80,000 tractor to your little car, then you can just sit here until the sun comes out!" With that he went on to another north-bound mororist with better respect for a good SC farmer!!!!

In Atlanta where I-95/I-85 join to get through the heart of town we used to have enough of the south that motorists slowed down and allowed entering cars room. There were no acceleration lanes at all, as there are now. Try that today with all the northerners in town and see if they will let you in!!!

Will the last southern red neck moving from downtown Atlanta, please bring out the Confederate flag!!!!!!!

[ET]

[Tim Bonney]

[Gene Scarborough]

ET & Timothy--

All 3 of us are relying on conjecture--and basing our views on limited empirical information. Today we must rely on the facts of running a church or business. It is my view that a hard-nosed leader of the church or business is doomed ultimately to fail. A compassionate pastor/business owner is destined to succeed IF he treats his slaves/employees as human beings. They may not have as much sense as the owner, but they are not peons either!

When people have a sense of ownership and partnership, they tend to work together better.

"Roots" showed clearly that the start of slavery was with the tribes of Africa who caught and sold their own black brothers into slavery. That has not changed today as people of color use racial issues so that the leaders who are the same color retain a degree of control over their own kind. Black realtors of Atlanta have gotten rich with what is called "block busting." They find a way (step 1) to get a black family into a white neighborhood. Step 2 is to create panic among the white residents so they start to sell at whatever price they can get. Step 3 is the black realtor buys and property at a minimum price and sells it to black clients for top dollar. The worst part of slavery was actually the preying of blacks on blacks---and that is stil true today.

Before you cry "foul" on my conjecture, let me be clear that it is based on current realities. In Atlanta, years ago, I saw such when my aunt and uncle in the Kirkwood community faced it. In Rocky Mount where I now run a business I see black leaders turning every issue into a racial one while crime and drugs plus gangs have turned the black neighborhood into a war zone hurting good black citizens more than anyone else.

If you have further contemporary stories you know, I am open to them. Otherwise, I stay by my pervious contentions that "we all have a problem when people are used and sold as property for the benefit of the more rich and prominent citizens of the same color/ethnics--black or white / oriental / immigrant / etc."

[Stephen Fox]

Jesse Jackson protected political turf when he backed Frank James against the Obama and Hugo Black grandson favored Cory Booker for Mayor of New Jersey. Subject of an Oscar Nominated film, Street Fight.

In that instance Jackson didn't have much in the Mah Fyburrr column on George Wallace of the 60's. And in Selma one progressive white Minister I know took his children out of the public schools in the 90's cause they were radicalized by the black power structure there. Even the president of Judson College, David Potts has been the victim of the racial politics of the black power structure in the Black Belt of Alabama; not named because blacks outnumber whites, but because of the rich soil that made it grand for cotton.

Bruce Gourley's mentor at Auburn, Wayne Flynt is an expert on the area.

That said, Scarborough could bone up a little on the Civil War with a thorough reading of E. L. Doctorow's The March. And he could cut back on his pontificating and start reading Diarmaid Macculloch on Christianity. On that I imagine Randall Lolley and I agree.

[Tim Bonney]

Sorry Gene, I don't buy it. I can marshall documentation showing the importance of slavery as prime cause of the war but I am not going to bother. I've learned long ago that I am too much a Yankee to want to argue about the Civil War with a southerner. For me it is history. For a lot of folks I know in the south it is personal. But suffice it to say, I think you are rationalizing.

[Gene Scarborough]

Thanks Steve--

We are both "sons of the South" in that your heritage is GA/ALA and mine is GA/SC/NC. Persons outside the South should understand the complexity of these issues---if they would just look in their own back yards! My dad told a story of a good black man in Boston who could not get any white person to answer his knock---until a white man from the South recognized him and said, "Come around to the back door so my neighbors can't see you, and you are welcome at my supper table!"

I have been to the West Coast. Discrimination there is along the lines of Mexican / Oriental. Up North it is along the lines of Italian / Russian / whatever Eastern European county they come from. America is a true "melting pot" but not without initial consignment to whatever ghetto newcomers find themselves piled into. Atlanta now has communities where people from India are grouped (my Clarkston area is one of these). In Doraville, famous for their GM plant, it is Oriental--no English signs on any businesses. You name it and Atlanta has it = English is not spoken here!

A sociologist I read in my Emory days contended that 3 generations separate our melting pot = the initial immigrants seek harmony with their fellow immigrants / their children obsess with being American and without the old country / their children seek their ancestors and culture.

It makes sense to me and all this social stuff is sometimes beyond comprehension or reason!!! Again, my ancestors owned no slaves---we were such---as poor white folks sweating in the fields of GA/SC!!