CBF dissent on the [Baptist] Conf on Sexuality and Covenant

[Ed Pettibone]

[Sandy]

[Ed Pettibone]

Sandy wrote "Ed, one of the things you left out was speaking in tongues. I remember when the Dallas Baptist Association made news for kicking out two churches which allowed the practice in their worship, and the ripple effect that had across the convention as other associations followed suit."

Ed: Sandy while it is true that Glossolalia had long been an off and on dispute among some So. Baptist, prior to the Reformation/Takeover it the extent of had generally been rather localized and sporadic. Only since the "Conservative resurgence" has it had great attention of the SBC. And specifically in the acceptability or unacceptability of Missionaries.

James Leo Garret has written extensively to this issue as it pertains to Southern Baptist. And I find no relationship to it and the upcoming conference on sexuality being sponsored by Mercer University and CBF.

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy----

Where the heck did you get your info about pre-1979 strategies and skull-duggery---some CR idiot, I bet

Talk about la-la land

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

If he did, then he is totally clueless and we know what actually happened and it was not pretty!

I am seeing the Pharisees ressurected under the guise of Conserative Resurgence

[Sandy]

Lived through it, attended seminary during the most blistering, heated years of it, got burned by people from both sides of it, and know where a lot of the bodies are buried. I was a member of two of the most notable, identifiable moderate Baptist congregations in CBF, and I can count among my closest friends several children of prominent, pre-1979 SBC leaders, including a couple who served on so many trustee boards, the seats were contoured to the shape of their rear end by the time they were done. So my information about the way Baptists peddled influence, twisted arms and got things done their way prior to 1979 didn't come from some "CR idiot." It comes straight from the horses' mouth. I know what they did and how they did it because I was one of them, a faithful student of "the Babdiss way" through the whole controversy.

It's one of those things I've often said I'd like to write a book about someday. It would be several volumes.

[Gene Scarborough]

[Sandy]

The gap between the definition of "homophobe" and churches or church-related entities employing individuals who are openly gay or lesbian is quite a wide one, and to conclude that homophobia is behind it is profoundly absurd. The vast majority of clergy, church leaders, denominations and individual churches in American Christianity have determined that a Biblical perspective of human sexuality rests on the teaching that sexual relations are intended by God to take place within the context of a marriage relationship, and that which takes place outside of marriage is sin. Since conviction, genuine repentance and a spirit-filled, spirit guided life is evidence of the experience of regeneration, most churches and most Christians have determined that those individuals whose lifestyle does not give evidence of having had a regeneration, or salvation, experience are not qualified for church leadership. That doesn't mean they are to be excluded from church altogether, nor that the church cannot "minister to gays," but it does very clearly imply that they are in need of repentance and salvation, and are not in any position to provide counsel or guidance to people in the same position. So a church deciding, on Biblical grounds, that it won't ordain homosexual individuals to ministry positions, or appoint them to positions of authority or teaching in the church, is not homophobic.

It appears obvious that many of CBF's pastors and church leaders, as well as most of its coordinating council and employed executive leadership, would agree with this.

[Dave Roberts]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

The first credential of a good counselor is not to be crazy or abnormal, yourself. Looking around my Abnormal Psychology class at Emory, it appeared that about 20% of us were normal and the rest were in there trying to figure out their "crazy." My University had all the journals needed in their Medical Libraries to allow for Masters level research.

I served as Chaplain to the Wake County Juvenile Court while doing special study in counseling at SEBTS. We hubbed around Dorothea Dix State Hospital and its Chaplain so we were exposed to the realities of a mental hospital.

I have counseled with numerous teens and adults as an Associate and Senior Pastor.

Quite frankly, I am concerned about many "over-trained" and remote "professionals" I have encountered. The basics of good counseling involve a solid background in understanding how personalitiy works and have enough perceptions to see through the pretense of ego protection. If you possess a "listening ear" you may be a better counselor than some remote professionals I have encountered.

Now, if you think you know more and are better credentialed, let me know, buddy

Richard Ryan is in your part of the country and I have no knowledge beyond the reputation of his school.

[Ed Pettibone]

[KeithE]

[Haruo]

Ed, did you mean to say that not being crazy was "a trait that needs to be credentialed"? Is a Chaplin position a tenured mime?

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

At the least, I am not crazy! I took the MMPI and showed normal as an old hound dog. How about you, brother?

I fail to see your obsession with who is better credentialed, you or me. I simply read the article and passed it on because it makes much sense and has the citation of studies about hate of homosexuals and how such people appear to have a lean toward the problem themselves.

Now, why don't we quit playing games and discuss the issue you are trying to divert

[KeithE]

[Tim Bonney]

I read the newspaper article but I've not read Ryan's research. But there have been several high profile cases of some well known conservative Christian or Republican operatives who in fact even participated in anti-gay legislation who later "came out." So it does make you wonder how many of the most angry homophobes "doth protest too much."

[Ed Pettibone]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Haruo]

I took the MMPI (1, I presume) in the late 1970s and it showed I had gender-identification issues. This wasn't true, but it was true that I was brought up to believe that (on average) women were more intelligent than men, which presumably led me to give the responses that led to the false result.

[Tim Bonney]

I took the MMPI in 2010. Oddly the test suggested that by nature I am a cautious person. Yet I took this test right after tossing away my entire career as a Baptist pastor and starting over with the UMC. That was hardly a cautious thing to do. Go figure! I think these instruments have value but as a person who had a class where we surveyed psychological testing I know the are't perfect.

[Gene Scarborough]

Not test of any kind is "perfect." However, the MMPI has shown itself to be "effective" in spotting personality defects. When the results come in, it is up to the one tested to determine how accurate they are. One unique feature of the profile is a "honesty feature" which shows people clearly lying to get by and not have their "wierd" spotted. We all have some as simple humans.

Even though the MMPI showed Timothy to want security, the UMC certainly provides more than the Baptist system. In that respect it showed what a wise move you made more in tune with your basic outlook!

Now----are we getting off track or not????

[Ed Pettibone]