CBF leader says it's time to revisit ban on hiring gays

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

I guess I'm confused about what you are saying the Ed. If you acknowledge that people do not make a conscience choice to be gay then how can you hold a person's orientation against them in hiring practices? (Or in any other way for that matter?)

I've yet to know a LGBT person who would say they chose their orientation. And I've yet to meet a straight person who chose their orientation. So why do we question "choice" for LGBT persons but not for straight persons?

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

Are you familiar at all with H.S. Sullivan's theory of personality development which makes a great deal of sense to me?

He posits that we go through a same-sex attraction at around age 8-12 prior to moving on to a heterosexual stage of development. Do you remember your gang of boys wanting to hang together and being the "girl haters club?"

I did, but when my hormones started flowing, I was noticing the distinct difference between boys and girls. I was liking it!

On the other hand, we could have a whole bunch of people simply stuck at the same-sex stage of development and not moving on to a more normal level of relationship. Just because it is not normal simply means, statistically it is in the 40% of the bell-shaped curve outside what is statistically "normal."

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

Ed I don't see that the smoking anology works because is an action, smoking. Being attracted to a a particular gender isn't an action it is an attraction. I still cannot say I know anyone who chooses an attraction, they choose an action. I don't see any way to equate attraction and action.

Also I think one of the issues that isn't discussed well is bisexuality. There are people attracted to both genders at some level, sometimes equally, and sometimes not. Many understand sexuality to be a scale and not just two posibile orientations. Also it is true that some persons apparently discover their orientation at a later time than others. Most gay people I know knew they were gay quite early. Other persons didn't discover their orientation until later in life. But none of those things make being gay, straight, or bisexual a choice. A person who is bisexual will choose to date a man or a woman but fundamentally they are bisexual no matter whom they are dating.

You and I are not going to agree and I don't expect I can convince you. So just to be clear as to what I understand, I believe there is growing evidence that people are straight, gay, bisexual, whatever because of forces that have little to do with choice. So I'm not going to judge people for whom they are attracted to. I don't believe you can ever judge people for what they feel, only for what they choose to do with those feelings. (And I'm not the judge.)

[Ed Pettibone]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

I compliment you for the good reasoning being done right now over against those who simply say "the Bible says it."

This discussion is a great example of people who have not given up their Bible in order to consider more recent findings about human sexuality.

Perhaps, the crux of the matter is in Ed's referral to "if it feels good, do it" taken from the hippie era. AIDS came into our lives with that approach as well! While smoking a cigarette or drinking hardly compares with the thrill of sexual stimulation and climax, all can become a crutch and obsession over a more mature "it's just the way God made us."

Probably the sex drive is our most pervasive. I have a little grandson who came into the world playing with his privates---and sucking his thumb while having the other hand in his pants. If we obsessed over it and made him feel guilty, it would be easy to create an obsession in him. Instead, we gently moved his little hand to his ear and after a while he quit. I don't remember my little boy reasoning, but I remember sucking my finger while spitting wet spot onto my sheet which I circled with my other finger and thought of some kind of completion comfort as I drifted off to sleep. It's child thought, but that was what comforted me at night = "just the way God made me."

[Tim Bonney]

Ed no i am not suggesting that feeling trump scripture. Without getting into exegesis of the texts all over again (because we have had that discussion before) the interpretation of what the scriptures say on this issue is not nearly as clear as many make it out to be.

I have exigetical studies by two prominant American Baptist theologians both highly credentialed and educated who read the texts and come out in different places both based on strong scholarship. If all this was as clear as many make it out to be we'd no be having this argument among all the different churches and denominations.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

Ed lets not be silly here. I just said above that at least two distinguished Baptist scholars DISAGREE WITH EACH OTHER as to what the Bible says about homosexuaity. I didn't say either one of them were "chumps." What I have said is that the exigesis of the texts here is complicated, controversial, and not as cut and dried as people on either side of the issue want it to be.

Are you saying that Tony's wife is a "chump" because she disagrees with her husbands position quite publically?

It is my opinion that you cannot decide issues related to homosexuality soley based on the Biblical texts. They don't give us enough information about our current situation. Experience and reason also have to be factors in these decisions that are related to sets of behaviors that are both related to theology and culture. Paul orders women to wear head coverings in church. The Old Testament forbids wearing mixed fabrics and eating certain seafoods. Well I don't see women wearing hats, I see a lot of poly-cotton blend clothing in church, and no one I know forbids eating shrimp and a rare streak based on the Bible.

If you want to follow the Bible in all things then we need to go back to arranged marriages, binding engagements that take a divorce to break, and let the LDS have multiple wives because there are certainly multiple wives in the OT.


I'm not a Biblical literalist and I know you aren't either. So chalk this up to me seeing the theology of this issue differently than you do. That doesn't make either of us "chumps" as long as one of us doesn't make this issue a test of faith and fellowship.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Big Daddy Weaver]

[William Thornton]

Couple of questions for the insightful BDW:

1. Is the CBF becoming more like the Alliance?

2. Is the CBF's desire to be a "sizable" organization dead, shelved?

[Dave Roberts]

[Gene Scarborough]

I think the future of faith aways depends on love and acceptance of those who are different, but love the Lord.

The problem when we become regional and too closely tied to the "glorified social club," we can so easily lose sight of our Lord and his love and forgiveness.

People are always watching how Christians act toward one another. I believe that with a more positive and questing outlook toward understanding and ministering to the gay community we will gain their respect.

They have already been demeaned enough in the real world. Much of it has come from people being biblical literalists rather than realizing the more importan core of faith is love / joy / peace.

It is like several Baptist leaders in the past who ended up with the gay issue in their family. Much public bombast suddenly became real and personal to the point they had to re-think their assumptions.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

How we go from the gay issue to the size of CBF is a little drifty.

Since we are here, let me make an observation about serving God and size. More often than not, size is the demise of closeness and fellowship. In our quest for being the biggest and most visible totally defeats Jesus' description as his followers being leven for a loaf.

I think we need to get back in the huddle with Jesus. The Disciples had their human ego issues and that wasn't pretty. The Early churches had their issues which consume much of the NT. It seems Satan never sleeps and loves a fuss and mess.

They will know we are Christians by our love----so let's start loving at our core and see where the size goes.

[Ed Pettibone]

And Gene how do we stay small and follow the command of Jesus when he said "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." ? We can not do that as lone rangers.

[Gene Scarborough]

God doesn't bless a mess and that is the reason people trying to be "just big" end up drawing many fakes away from the real deal of following and imitating Christ---who started small and let it grow!

The worst thing to happen to the Early Church was Constantine's declaration that Rome was now Christian.

It's not how high you jump, but how straight you walk when you hit the ground---in fact, the largest church in town is those who refuse to participate in fakery and live their lives helping one another---often not attending church!

You will kindly note that Jesus never had a building / organ / large contingent to hustle the crowds in.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

If you want details lets take this to the Methodist thread. But in response to a couple of posts mentioning the United Methodist decline in membership, the UMC is preparing in April to vote on a "Call to Action" report which include significant restructuring of the denomination and significant recommendations on concentrating on indicators of church vitality from a national study to promote church growth. We'll see if the plan is adopted in April at General Conference and we'll only know down the road if it helps the denomination to reverse the numbers losses.
(Again, if you want to ask me about the CTA Report lets go to the another thread rather than bog down this one with UMC discussion. That will keep the moderators happier. )

[Big Daddy Weaver]

I think I made it clear that homosexuality was not relevant to the founding of the CBF. The Alliance was not gay friendly at the time the CBF was started.

The perception that the Alliance was more left-leaning - politically and theologically - was an issue. But homosexuality only became an issue of importance later. See the dates I mentioned.

I don't want to look at the Methodists. My point was that the Methodists and other mainline Protestant denoms have not experienced the same level of decline that the CBF has in the last 5 years. Their decline has been gradual. Our has been rapid.

Thus, when mainline Protestants are mentioned to explain the CBF's struggles, I think that's a bad comparison. Apples and Oranges.

[Ed Pettibone]