CBF leader says it's time to revisit ban on hiring gays

[William Thornton]

CBF leader says it's time to revisit ban on hiring gays

DECATUR, Ga. (ABP) – After the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship completes a re-visioning process and selects a new executive coordinator, a first order of business should be revisiting a policy that prohibits the hiring of gays and lesbians, the organization’s top elected officer told leaders Feb. 24.

Well, I'll not comment save for wondering why she didn't at least wait until the Mercer conference.

And, yes, I recognize that this is her own opinion, but she is the CBF Moderator and exec with a CBF partner.

I give Bob Allen and ABP credit for covering the story. It is news.

[Haruo]

Good for her.

[Dave Roberts]

It says that ABP is actually a news service, not a propganda arm where stories have to be approved. Don't know exactly what Colleen is advocating, and the story is a bit vague. Basically, the ban has proven unenforceable beyond the home office staff. Guess that is true of all churches as well. Only local associations can discipline churches. State conventions can refuse their money, but that is all.

[Gene Scarborough]

This is simply one of the issues of the day in America.

You can either ignore it or deal with it. This lady of integrity is expressing her desire to deal with it. I agree that we should come to some kind of understanding over it.

If Jesus said nothing explicit about it / commanded us to love and forgive one another / ministered to the outcast Samaratans / was unashamed to visit with the woman at the well in broad daylight and offered forgiveness to her---I have my answer as to how I---as his follower---should deal with the issue!!!

If I were a Jew or Pharisee, I would stone them with relish----BUT, I follow Jesus!

[Haruo]

If I were a Jew or Pharisee, I would stone them with relish----BUT, I follow Jesus!

I think "Jews" in general are, and were even in Jesus' day, a bit beyond stoning folks with relish, though I can't speak for the Pharisees on this.

[Timothy Bonney]

So by the current policy does the CBF ask everyone who interviews with them if they are gay?

[Ed Pettibone]

So by the current policy does the CBF ask everyone who interviews with them if they are gay?

Ed: Tim, I think their question is "what is your position on the practice of homosexuality" In the UMC would it be cool to say "I consider the practice of homosexuality a sin?

[Haruo]

So by the current policy does the CBF ask everyone who interviews with them if they are gay?

Ed: Tim, I think their question is "what is your position on the practice of homosexuality" In the UMC would it be cool to say "I consider the practice of homosexuality a sin?

So does CBF hire non-practicing (celibate) homosexuals, or even practicing ones who consider their own behavior sinful, but not hire heterosexuals whose views on the practice of homosexuality are slightly to the liberal side of the party line, provided of course that applicants of all types know their own minds and are honest?

[Ed Pettibone]

So by the current policy does the CBF ask everyone who interviews with them if they are gay?

Ed: Tim, I think their question is "what is your position on the practice of homosexuality" In the UMC would it be cool to say "I consider the practice of homosexuality a sin?

Hauro: So does CBF hire non-practicing (celibate) homosexuals, or even practicing ones who consider their own behavior sinful, but not hire heterosexuals whose views on the practice of homosexuality are slightly to the liberal side of the party line, provided of course that applicants of all types know their own minds and are honest?

Ed: And What party line are you talking about? to answer your question, CBF does not knowingly employee homosexuals Period. Gould they be lied to? Sure but that is grounds for termination. And of course Hauro your question regarding (celibate) homosexuals seems to be based on the assumption that homosexuals "are born that way". And despite years of research and investing tons of money in trying to find proof of that, it had not been accomplished. Some hereditary markers toward a propensity possibly, but as a cause NO! Most with such markers remain heterosexual for a lifetime.

[Haruo]

But if they ask only about applicants' positions on the practice of homosexuality, and not about their sexual orientation, then how do they expect to know? It sounds a lot like "CBF does not knowingly employ embezzlers, PERIOD"; as long as they don't ask whether a person is an embezzler, ... umm ...

[Timothy Bonney]

Ed: Tim, I think their question is "what is your position on the practice of homosexuality" In the UMC would it be cool to say "I consider the practice of homosexuality a sin?

Yes, I think you are aware that the official position of the UMC is that the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching. However, are you saying that the CBF wouldn't hire a gay person for any position? Secretary? Janitor? etc.? And I think Haruo asks a valid question about sexual orientation versus "practice." I don't believe most people in the UMC would say that having a certain sexual orientation in and of itself is a sin even if they believe homosexual activity is sinful.

[William Thornton]

The ABP article quotes the longstanding CBF policy:

The policy statement reads in full: “As Baptist Christians, we believe that the foundation of a Christian sexual ethic is faithfulness in marriage between a man and a woman and celibacy in singleness. We also believe in the love and grace of God for all people, both for those who live by this understanding of the biblical standard and those who do not. We treasure the freedom of individual conscience and the autonomy of the local church, and we also believe that congregational leaders should be persons of moral integrity whose lives exemplify the highest standards of Christian conduct and character.

“Because of this organizational value, the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship does not allow for the expenditure of funds for organizations or causes that condone, advocate or affirm homosexual practice. Neither does this CBF organizational value allow for the purposeful hiring of a staff person or the sending of a missionary who is a practicing homosexual.”

If Colleen Burroughs organization, Passport, Inc., condoned, advocated, or affirmed homosexual practice, the CBF policy would end their partnership.

Her statements as both Moderator of the CBF and as Passport, Inc. leader are problematic for both organizations.

[Haruo]

Condone, advocate and affirm are very fluid terms. But Ed, the wording is clear about not knowingly hiring practicing homosexuals, but your own words, "CBF does not knowingly employee homosexuals Period", do not mention "practicing". "I'd really like to date you, but we'll have to wait a bit until my job application goes through..." ?

[Ed Pettibone]

But if they ask only about applicants' positions on the practice of homosexuality, and not about their sexual orientation, then how do they expect to know? It sounds a lot like "CBF does not knowingly employ embezzlers, PERIOD"; as long as they don't ask whether a person is an embezzler, ... umm ...

Ed; Haruo have you ever applied for a fiduciary position and been asked if you are an embezzler? In your job did you have an opportunity to interview the people you supervised? If so could you have rejected them? On what basis? Franky if some one ask about my orientation I would say Heterosexual assuming that is the answer they want but if the answer the want is homosexual I don't want the job. I say I would hedging to say my orientation is Heterosexual because, I am persuaded that all of us have a bisexual orientation meaning we have no preference and will have a pleasureful reaction to sexual stimulation by either sex. By the time we become able differentiate accurately between sexes the vast majority of people 93+ percent chose the same sex for intimate contact. Because we have been trained that this is the norm. And for a wide variety of reasons that minority (under 7 per cent) chose the homosexual alternative or revert to bi-sexuality. And yes I acknowledge that many if not most homosexuals believe "that is just what I am". Quite honestly my experience working with several in a mental health setting. I don't believe most really know what they are. I have seen some chose to change and did so. And yes some had no desire to change largely because the known was more comfortable than the unknown.

If and when CBF revisits the ban on hiring I will have direct input how about you? As I say in the tread that I started Lets leave CBF polity and Policy to CBF. I take the same stance to to outsiders who want to have a say in ABC-USA policy on what ever issue.

And Hauro I do believe you are capable of a lot better argumentaion that you have tossed around this evening. I have some other things to get done.

[Haruo]

I admit that the "embezzler" bit was a little off the wall, but still I don't think you (Ed) have adequately addressed the difference between CBF's wording "practicing homosexuals" and your own "homosexuals"; they're (at least for many people, gay and straight alike) quite distinct categories. One is a subset, not a synonym, of the other.

[William Thornton]

I'll leave the CBF policy to the CBF, whose moderator says that the "first" order of business after the revisioning is to revisit this. But perhaps I will make some unofficial, outsider observations.

Burrough's view is that it should not be revisited just to say 'howdy' but to find a way to eliminate or amend it. She even states that it should be the very first order of business after this revisioning process is over. Either the CBF has a Moderator who is out of step with the membership or one who represents the organization's movement in the last two decades towards a more liberal policy.

Need any be reminded that the slam of the CBF from the SBC for many years includes this issue? The CBF fended that off decisively years ago with their clear statement of policy, the one Burroughs seeks to put at the very top of their agenda.

I give credit to Ed who has been the only CBFer here who has repeatedly and plainly represented the longstanding policy.

I don't see this as a surprising development but certainly a curious one. It is unlikely that she fails to understand the sensitivity of the matter yet raised it in an official forum and out of her top position.

Guess we will see where this goes and who with the CBF will be the first respond to her.

[Ed Pettibone]

The ABP article quotes the longstanding CBF policy:

The policy statement reads in full: “As Baptist Christians, we believe that the foundation of a Christian sexual ethic is faithfulness in marriage between a man and a woman and celibacy in singleness. We also believe in the love and grace of God for all people, both for those who live by this understanding of the biblical standard and those who do not. We treasure the freedom of individual conscience and the autonomy of the local church, and we also believe that congregational leaders should be persons of moral integrity whose lives exemplify the highest standards of Christian conduct and character.

“Because of this organizational value, the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship does not allow for the expenditure of funds for organizations or causes that condone, advocate or affirm homosexual practice. Neither does this CBF organizational value allow for the purposeful hiring of a staff person or the sending of a missionary who is a practicing homosexual.”

If Colleen Burroughs organization, Passport, Inc., condoned, advocated, or affirmed homosexual practice, the CBF policy would end their partnership.

Her statements as both Moderator of the CBF and as Passport, Inc. leader are problematic for both organizations.

Ed: William, Coleen is not an employee of CBF. The Moderator is elected not hired. And I do not believe that you or anyone else can find anything where Passport Inc condones, advocates or affirms homosexual practice. I would agree that Coleen's comment as quoted in the ABP story that has been linked on these boards could become problematic. But I also agree with her that CBF needs to continue conversation about a christian response to those who identify as homosexual. And while I am content with the CBF hiring policy I have no objection to entertaining suggestions for change, as long as I have access to the conversation and any final decision.

[William Thornton]

Ed: William, Coleen is not an employee of CBF. The Moderator is elected not hired. And I do not believe that you or anyone else can find anything where Passport Inc condones, advocates or affirms homosexual practice. I would agree that Coleen's comment as quoted in the ABP story that has been linked on these boards could become problematic. But I also agree with her that CBF needs to continue conversation about a christian response to those who identify as homosexual. And while I am content with the CBF hiring policy I have no objection to entertaining suggestions for change, as long as I have access to the conversation and any final discussion.

Didn't say she was, Ed. I'm aware that she is the unpaid titular CBF head at the moment, sort of like Bryant Wright.

I don't know if anyone could find anything official on Passport, Inc. on the issue other than the statements of the executive VP which aren't conclusive but certainly raise eyebrows...if there are CBFers who intend to keep the present policy.

[Timothy Bonney]

Ed I'd like to ask a polity question because I just don't know. How do people get to sit on the coordinating council to have a vote on CBF policies? Is it a delegate/messenger system? If so how is it representative? I think that makes some difference to how the organization makes policy and theological decisions.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: William, Coleen is not an employee of CBF. The Moderator is elected not hired. And I do not believe that you or anyone else can find anything where Passport Inc condones, advocates or affirms homosexual practice. I would agree that Coleen's comment as quoted in the ABP story that has been linked on these boards could become problematic. But I also agree with her that CBF needs to continue conversation about a christian response to those who identify as homosexual. And while I am content with the CBF hiring policy I have no objection to entertaining suggestions for change, as long as I have access to the conversation and any final discussion.

Didn't say she was, Ed. I'm aware that she is the unpaid titular CBF head at the moment, sort of like Bryant Wright.

I don't know if anyone could find anything official on Passport, Inc. on the issue other than the statements of the executive VP which aren't conclusive but certainly raise eyebrows...if there are CBFers who intend to keep the present policy.

No William, Wright as president of the SBC has the potential to serve two years Collen's one year term is up in June. As president of the SBC Wright has strong appointive power for major positions within the SBC. Coleen has no appointive power. It is true that this year she has in addition to being the Moderator she is serving as the Chair of the search committee for Dan Vestal's replacement. The CBF moderators primary task is to be an Official Goodwill Ambassador for the organization and to moderate the General Assembly and meetings of the Coordinating Council

No doubt Eyebrow have been raised. A leader who does not some times cause eyebrows to be raised is not working very hard. As I said in one of these threads on this subject I was disappointed to see her comments. But I am not about to throw out the baby with the bath water. And As I told Hauro I do not plan to spend a lot of time explaining or justifying CBF to people on the outside looking in and throwing stones. Active CBFer may or may not get a lot more time, this week. I have a Regional ABCNYS meeting coming up on Saturday and maybe a meeting with other members of the Regional enhancement team from the Capital Area Association before that, the other three have full time jobs. And I also have a building and grounds committee meeting as part of my duties with the Senior Housing Project Board on which I serve.

[William Thornton]

William: "Say, Ed, who is the elected head of the CBF these days?"

Ed: "Colleen Burroughs."

William: "Thanks, Ed."

[Neil Heath]

If I were a Jew or Pharisee, I would stone them with relish----BUT, I follow Jesus!

I think "Jews" in general are, and were even in Jesus' day, a bit beyond stoning folks with relish, though I can't speak for the Pharisees on this.

It might be rather messy, but it wouldn't be much of a punishment beyond that. I'd vote to save the relish for the kosher hot dogs myself.

[Neil Heath]

One correction, Ed. I think the chair of the search committee for Vestal's successor is George Mason, not Colleen.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed I'd like to ask a polity question because I just don't know. How do people get to sit on the coordinating council to have a vote on CBF policies? Is it a delegate/messenger system? If so how is it representative? I think that makes some difference to how the organization makes policy and theological decisions.

Ed: Tim I am sorry I do not have the time to give you a real good answer real soon. Perhaps Dave Roberts will do better. But let me say The Coordinating Council does make CBF policy directly. They consider the needs of the organization as presented in reports from State and Regional groups, churches and Individuals. The CC member are recommended by their State or Regional group 2 from each state or region with an approved group. The actual votes on CBF policy are made by the Attendees at the Annual Assembly. It is neither a delegate or messenger system. In BFNE We have two meetings a year. Some states meet more frequently there we are advised of and discuss current proposals with our CC reps present. And as i think you know Their are national publications and a National CBF Website to keep us informed, along with State and Regional websites. And of course ABP and Baptists Today and other newsletters and web site from our partner organizations. We go to the Assembly prepared to vote our conscience after attending break out sessions ( Similar to ABC's statements of concern.) In this way i may be closer to the SBC messenger but whentrudy and I attend we are not messengers from or to the Burnthills Baptist church Per Se. We have Some one from the National office at almost all of our regional meeting they are not only Guest speakers but they visit and interact with any and all and those who have been to a BFNE meetings and the national listing sessions can tell you I am not the only one who ask questions and expresses his opinions, And before I Close yes, I have seen recommendations from the CC and the National office challenged, modified, tabled, and rejected as well as being approved it is definitely not a rubber stamp process.

Dave where are you ????

[Ed Pettibone]

William: "Say, Ed, who is the elected head of the CBF these days?"

Ed: "Colleen Burroughs."

William: "Thanks, Ed."

William I think that is a blatant misrepresentation. When and where did you ask who the elected head of CBF is, and I answered Coleen?