What a bargain!

[Alan Carter]

This is great! Now we are paying churches to consider women for pastors even though they might be the top candidate. What will they think of next?

http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/6778/53/

[Tim Dahl]

Wrong forum Alan. This belongs over in the CBF Forum. This has nothing to do with SBC life.

Personally, I can see a problem. Doing a phone interview is one thing. Actually showing up to a church interview is another. I was happy with phone interviews, but I was down right joyous at an on-campus interview. I would have been devastated to find out that the church wasn't really considering me. If there was an equivalent "grant" for larger churches to interview recent seminary grads for the "experience," and I got the call...I would have been crushed. The article seems to point to the "experience" aspect as a good thing. Any church pulling this on some lady, fresh out of seminary, better be upfront from the very beginning about their motivation. If that candidate isn't being seriously considered, they had better let her know. Anything else seems unethical.

Tim

[Alan Carter]

Sorry about that. Oh well, its only a matter of time for the SBC to copy the CBF. Should be interesting to see some of our rednecks interviewing a woman preacher.

[TrudyU]

[Big Daddy Weaver]

[Sandy]

Aside from all of the questions about someone believing their is hope in a situation where it doesn't exist, and the whole matter of one Baptist body paying money to another to encourage some kind of decision be made, is the fact that calling a pastor is a spiritual matter requiring a strong sense of God's direction and movement. CBFMO is declaring, by doing this, that they do not understand the process of how a pastor is called to a Baptist church and are trying to circumvent something that is a reflection of the movement of the Holy Spirit.

Baptist churches do that frequently, and the average tenure of pastors in SBC churches is a reflection of that. Of course, if it is ackowledged that this is a process in which God is involved intimately from beginning to end, then it also must be acknowledged that perhaps the interpretation of his written word that says women are not eligible for consideration as the pastor of a church is a correct one. There are few female pastors among the CBF affiliated churches, which may also reflect the fact that when churches genuinely seek God's direction in the matter, they wind up with a male pastor.

We belonged to a large, well known moderate, CBF affiliated congregation in Houston for a number of years, including through a pastor search. After the choice was made, I was told by a member of the search committee that there were a couple of women whose names came up, but that they were not given serious consideration. A long time member of the church told me that, though the church broke ground in Texas by ordaining a woman to the gospel ministry, and had a number of female deacons, he did not think they would ever call a female pastor under any circumstances.

I don't think CBF has the kind of money it would take to make a difference in this area.

[Haruo]

[Big Daddy Weaver]

[Haruo]

[Big Daddy Weaver]

Oh, I think the folks that approved this policy at CBFMO had noble intentions. Good people trying to do good sometimes have really bad ideas.

[Sandy]

A top down push from a denominational organization is the kind of thing CBF'ers criticize in the SBC. But that's exactly what this is. Isn't that a violation of traditional Baptist principles?

This is an acknowledgement, by at least one CBF group, that the talk about women serving in the pastorate among the higher level leaders is one thing, but getting the churches to do it is quite another. I don't expect to hear any moderate Baptist admit that, because calling a pastor is a process which should be completely submitted to the Holy Spirit, the fact that rhetoric about women in the pastorate isn't translating into women in the pulpit may very well be because God isn't moving churches to call women to the pulpit. It's not because there is a shortage of seminary or divinity school trained women, either. I haven't had a lot of contact with Baptists who attend churches with female pastors, so my perspective is based on anecdotal evidence, but from what I hear, and what I read, in some of the churches which have had the experience of a female pastor, it has not always been a delightful or, depending on how you evaluate "success" in ministry, a successful experience.

[Dave Roberts]

[Big Daddy Weaver]

[Gene Scarborough]

I find some of the reasoning here rediculous.

Let's face it, we are creatures of habit and that habit has been to expect a man in the pulpit. Few people consider the high place of women in Jesus' outlook and selection of followers and the inner circle.

Between Jewish disdain for women and the bias of Paul and others along with RC biases, we are pretty much indoctrinated to keep women in the pews.

Like Dave, I have known several outstanding women pastors and deacons despite my own personal bias and lifelong outlook of expecting men in the pulpit.

Would it not be wiser to let women have the same opportunity as men who feel a calling to preach? Even in the UMC where any clergy is promised a place with no regard to sex, the last lady pastor here in Bath had her detractors---simply because of bias among the "liberal" Methodists of the deep south. Jesus didn't forbid women to join and be accepted so we would be wise to do the same!!!!

[Tim Bonney]

When I was an American Baptist I knew several very fine women pastors who also happened to be some of the best pastors I've ever known. And in the UMC the percentage of women clergy is much higher and they are effect pastors, Superintendents and Bishops.

A search committee can search for what God wants for the church but it is amazing how often that search leads to what the church wants without very much real consideration of what that church needs. No system is perfect but lets not pretend that the call system always leads to God's candidate for the pulpit.

[Gene Scarborough]

Tim---

It's a breath of fresh air to have your good comments back with us!!!!

Thanks!

[Tim Bonney]

[Neil Heath]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Big Daddy Weaver]

I think we'll see reforms at some point in the RCC especially on the celibacy question. The shortage of priests will force the Church to reform, I think. But these reforms won't happen as long as Benedict is Pope.

[David Flick]

[William Thornton]

Give CBFMO credit for recognizing that the CBF partner seminaries and divinity schools educate and train scads of females for the pastorate, who then have to understand that they have scant chance of landing that position in an actual church. Give them credit for desigining a program that takes a baby step towards remedying that situation. The intensity of objection to it from some surprises me.

Would the objections BDW's ordained female friends be ameliorated by disclosure to the candidate? Would it not be helpful to these women to have expereince with church search committees.

And, BDW, could you elaborate more on what the objections were from your female friends?

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Does any one here have the actual wording of the Missouri plan for introducing search committees to female pastoral candidates?

I have an idea that every one here may be reacting to the article at http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/6778/53/ rather than to the actual proposal.

What is omitted where the ellipses are in this quote "include a woman candidate in the process ... treating her as a top candidate even if she isn't actually one of the top candidates," ? And would it make any difference to some of you if it read ( We encourage you to include women in you search process and treat all candidates coming in as equals.)

I do think the "even if she isn't actually one of the top candidates" could have been worded better. Personally I do not care for the idea of ranking candidates be they female or male, nor have I ever been a great fan of any affirmative action plan.

[Gene Scarborough]

What amazes me is that in most things women tend to do the real work while men want to supervise. Were it not for my wife as the hub of her Physical Therapy Department, they would constantly run out of supplies and have to hire 3 more people as fill ins for what she does as needed. Just as a good woman keeps the house together and takes primary responsiblity for child-rearing, she is capable of moving forward if the husband is absent.

I think it is a perception of arrogance that women should not pastor or lead in churches.

The Jews tried to keep women down along with other surrounding cultures. Over in Egypt it was another story. Women could inherit and own property and many were priests in cults only allowing women to participate while men could visit. What is even more interesting is that until women became archaeologists in recent years, no men gave much time or energy to disclose such a historical fact.

Are we scared they might out-do us fellows??????

[Big Daddy Weaver]