What a bargain!

[Alan Carter]

This is great! Now we are paying churches to consider women for pastors even though they might be the top candidate. What will they think of next?

http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/6778/53/

[Tim Dahl]

Wrong forum Alan. This belongs over in the CBF Forum. This has nothing to do with SBC life.

Personally, I can see a problem. Doing a phone interview is one thing. Actually showing up to a church interview is another. I was happy with phone interviews, but I was down right joyous at an on-campus interview. I would have been devastated to find out that the church wasn't really considering me. If there was an equivalent "grant" for larger churches to interview recent seminary grads for the "experience," and I got the call...I would have been crushed. The article seems to point to the "experience" aspect as a good thing. Any church pulling this on some lady, fresh out of seminary, better be upfront from the very beginning about their motivation. If that candidate isn't being seriously considered, they had better let her know. Anything else seems unethical.

Tim

[Alan Carter]

Sorry about that. Oh well, its only a matter of time for the SBC to copy the CBF. Should be interesting to see some of our rednecks interviewing a woman preacher.

[TrudyU]

Wrong forum Alan. This belongs over in the CBF Forum. This has nothing to do with SBC life.

Personally, I can see a problem. Doing a phone interview is one thing. Actually showing up to a church interview is another. I was happy with phone interviews, but I was down right joyous at an on-campus interview. I would have been devastated to find out that the church wasn't really considering me. If there was an equivalent "grant" for larger churches to interview recent seminary grads for the "experience," and I got the call...I would have been crushed. The article seems to point to the "experience" aspect as a good thing. Any church pulling this on some lady, fresh out of seminary, better be upfront from the very beginning about their motivation. If that candidate isn't being seriously considered, they had better let her know. Anything else seems unethical.

Tim

Ed: Tim D. Although CBF MO seems to have originated the idea I see it having potential with other Baptist beyond CBF also. I am not sure those questioning this process really understand it what is being proposed.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

Wrong forum Alan. This belongs over in the CBF Forum. This has nothing to do with SBC life.

Personally, I can see a problem. Doing a phone interview is one thing. Actually showing up to a church interview is another. I was happy with phone interviews, but I was down right joyous at an on-campus interview. I would have been devastated to find out that the church wasn't really considering me. If there was an equivalent "grant" for larger churches to interview recent seminary grads for the "experience," and I got the call...I would have been crushed. The article seems to point to the "experience" aspect as a good thing. Any church pulling this on some lady, fresh out of seminary, better be upfront from the very beginning about their motivation. If that candidate isn't being seriously considered, they had better let her know. Anything else seems unethical.

Tim

Ed: Tim D. Although CBF MO seems to have originated the idea I see it having potential with other Baptist beyond CBF also. I am not sure those questioning this process really understand it what is being proposed.

Here are a few concerns raised in the actual article:

But Kathy Pickett, moderator-elect for the state body, voiced concern that female candidates – particularly young women -- “are not hurt and damaged" in the process.

Pickett, pastor of congregational life at Holmeswood Baptist Church in Kansas City, said in an interview that she appreciates that CBF of Missouri is trying to think creatively, but asking women to step into that situation “makes them a guinea pig on both sides."

She wonders how a woman might feel when she realizes a church accepted the incentive to consider her, and then finds out that the committee doesn't really consider her as a viable candidate. She said idealistic young women coming out of seminary may be particularly vulnerable.

"The young women may believe that something good is going to happen,” Pickett said. “There is a hopefulness that something is going to change when it likely isn't going to.”

[Sandy]

Aside from all of the questions about someone believing their is hope in a situation where it doesn't exist, and the whole matter of one Baptist body paying money to another to encourage some kind of decision be made, is the fact that calling a pastor is a spiritual matter requiring a strong sense of God's direction and movement. CBFMO is declaring, by doing this, that they do not understand the process of how a pastor is called to a Baptist church and are trying to circumvent something that is a reflection of the movement of the Holy Spirit.

Baptist churches do that frequently, and the average tenure of pastors in SBC churches is a reflection of that. Of course, if it is ackowledged that this is a process in which God is involved intimately from beginning to end, then it also must be acknowledged that perhaps the interpretation of his written word that says women are not eligible for consideration as the pastor of a church is a correct one. There are few female pastors among the CBF affiliated churches, which may also reflect the fact that when churches genuinely seek God's direction in the matter, they wind up with a male pastor.

We belonged to a large, well known moderate, CBF affiliated congregation in Houston for a number of years, including through a pastor search. After the choice was made, I was told by a member of the search committee that there were a couple of women whose names came up, but that they were not given serious consideration. A long time member of the church told me that, though the church broke ground in Texas by ordaining a woman to the gospel ministry, and had a number of female deacons, he did not think they would ever call a female pastor under any circumstances.

I don't think CBF has the kind of money it would take to make a difference in this area.

[Haruo]

Aside from all of the questions about someone believing their is hope in a situation where it doesn't exist, and the whole matter of one Baptist body paying money to another to encourage some kind of decision be made, is the fact that calling a pastor is a spiritual matter requiring a strong sense of God's direction and movement. CBFMO is declaring, by doing this, that they do not understand the process of how a pastor is called to a Baptist church and are trying to circumvent something that is a reflection of the movement of the Holy Spirit.

I don't think you've remembered much of your Bible, Sandy. Subversion and trickery are often the means the Spirit uses. How did Jacob horn in in front of Esau? Among a great many other examples, including Jesus' being hanged on a tree.

CBFMO is merely providing the airfare for some churches to have an opportunity to realize that God may be calling them in a direction they had not been considering. I'm sure the women involved understand this.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

CBFMO is merely providing the airfare for some churches to have an opportunity to realize that God may be calling them in a direction they had not been considering. I'm sure the women involved understand this.

No, they don't. There's no indication that the woman would ever be told that she's A) not being seriously considered and is B) only being brought out for an interview because some outside body (CBFMO) is picking up the tab.

I've had conversations (in-person, over email and on telephone) yesterday and today with a few ordained female Baptist friends. They too had read the article on ABP. And their responses ranged from "extremely uncomfortable with this practice" to "outraged" and "ridiculous"

My liberal Presbyterian colleagues used the word "demeaning" and "patronizing" after reading the article.

In my opinion, the rationale and explanation of the policy is much worse than the policy itself (travel stipend for churches considering a female for senior pastor position).

Aside from the idea of using money as an incentive to attempt to influence the process (which Sandy is correct, supposed to be Spirit-led), it's just wrong, really unethical, for a church to be paid to bring out a female candidate for an interview who was really not under serious consideration - all the while believing that she was indeed a candidate. CBFMO should at least stipulate that the funds are only for a church that is seriously considering a female. How hard is that?

[Haruo]

CBFMO is merely providing the airfare for some churches to have an opportunity to realize that God may be calling them in a direction they had not been considering. I'm sure the women involved understand this.

No, they don't. There's no indication that the woman would ever be told that she's A) not being seriously considered and is B) only being brought out for an interview because some outside body (CBFMO) is picking up the tab.

That was me, not Sandy. Not sure how you came to misattribute the quote. You are probably right, in which case it is just as inappropriate as your liberal friends suggest. I just preferred to assume CBF (MO or otherwise) would be above that sort of ridiculousness.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

Oh, I think the folks that approved this policy at CBFMO had noble intentions. Good people trying to do good sometimes have really bad ideas.

[Sandy]

A top down push from a denominational organization is the kind of thing CBF'ers criticize in the SBC. But that's exactly what this is. Isn't that a violation of traditional Baptist principles?

This is an acknowledgement, by at least one CBF group, that the talk about women serving in the pastorate among the higher level leaders is one thing, but getting the churches to do it is quite another. I don't expect to hear any moderate Baptist admit that, because calling a pastor is a process which should be completely submitted to the Holy Spirit, the fact that rhetoric about women in the pastorate isn't translating into women in the pulpit may very well be because God isn't moving churches to call women to the pulpit. It's not because there is a shortage of seminary or divinity school trained women, either. I haven't had a lot of contact with Baptists who attend churches with female pastors, so my perspective is based on anecdotal evidence, but from what I hear, and what I read, in some of the churches which have had the experience of a female pastor, it has not always been a delightful or, depending on how you evaluate "success" in ministry, a successful experience.

[Dave Roberts]

A top down push from a denominational organization is the kind of thing CBF'ers criticize in the SBC. But that's exactly what this is. Isn't that a violation of traditional Baptist principles?

This is an acknowledgement, by at least one CBF group, that the talk about women serving in the pastorate among the higher level leaders is one thing, but getting the churches to do it is quite another. I don't expect to hear any moderate Baptist admit that, because calling a pastor is a process which should be completely submitted to the Holy Spirit, the fact that rhetoric about women in the pastorate isn't translating into women in the pulpit may very well be because God isn't moving churches to call women to the pulpit. It's not because there is a shortage of seminary or divinity school trained women, either. I haven't had a lot of contact with Baptists who attend churches with female pastors, so my perspective is based on anecdotal evidence, but from what I hear, and what I read, in some of the churches which have had the experience of a female pastor, it has not always been a delightful or, depending on how you evaluate "success" in ministry, a successful experience.

Sandy, I can only speak anecdotally, but I have pretty close relationships with three women who are senior pastors. The first came and served a small country church near where we live. She did an excellent job with the congregation and resigned because of health issues. She is still in the area and highly respected. The second is a member of a peer learning group I convene. She has been well-received by the congregation, and is a deep theological thinker. The third is pastor of the church my wife and I attend. It is a small-town church in a deeply conservative community, and it is growing. She is in her 6th year with the church, and has done an excellent job with the church.

I don't see a lot of success from the top down approach. My suspicion is that CBFMO may one day regret the approach they have taken. A lot of churches I have dealt with over the years never offered a dime for travel or anything else when I made a trip for an interview. I see this as something bubbling from the bottom up in Baptist life, and happening slowly. Yet, it is happening, no matter what the SBC may say, and some of those involved feel very deeply that it has been a moving of God's Spirit.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

the fact that rhetoric about women in the pastorate isn't translating into women in the pulpit may very well be because God isn't moving churches to call women to the pulpit.

Oh come on, that is an awful argument.

We could use this logic here in so many different and equally ridiculous ways. Predominantly white churches aren't exactly in the business of calling OR even CONSIDERING African-American candidates.

With that fact, can we really leap to the conclusion that God isn't moving churches to call Black candidates to white churches? If so, what does that mean? That God's plan is segregated churches (black pastors lead black churches, white pastors lead white churches)?

That is, after all, what you're implying about women. That because churches haven't been "moved" or "led" to call a woman pastor, then that means that women in the pulpit is not part of God's plan, something that God desires, etc.

I haven't had a lot of contact with Baptists who attend churches with female pastors, so my perspective is based on anecdotal evidence, but from what I hear, and what I read, in some of the churches which have had the experience of a female pastor, it has not always been a delightful or, depending on how you evaluate "success" in ministry, a successful experience.

Here's the problem, Sandy. You often portray yourself as someone who has real insight to offer about moderate and progressive Baptists due to your past experiences. Yet, you just admitted that you don't even actually know any Baptist women pastors AND you've had little CONTACT with OTHERS who ATTEND churches with female pastors!

We all know many many many many churches that have had bad experiences with MEN pastors. Maybe the problem is MEN? Seriously, why try to link the "bad experiences" with the pastor's gender? What's that got to do with anything.

I'm curious to know what churches you're referring to. You were in Texas for many years and your experiences and reflections have always obviously been based on Texas. There aren't too many women pastors in Texas. The most prominent was, of course, Julie Pennington-Russell (my former preacher).

[Gene Scarborough]

I find some of the reasoning here rediculous.

Let's face it, we are creatures of habit and that habit has been to expect a man in the pulpit. Few people consider the high place of women in Jesus' outlook and selection of followers and the inner circle.

Between Jewish disdain for women and the bias of Paul and others along with RC biases, we are pretty much indoctrinated to keep women in the pews.

Like Dave, I have known several outstanding women pastors and deacons despite my own personal bias and lifelong outlook of expecting men in the pulpit.

Would it not be wiser to let women have the same opportunity as men who feel a calling to preach? Even in the UMC where any clergy is promised a place with no regard to sex, the last lady pastor here in Bath had her detractors---simply because of bias among the "liberal" Methodists of the deep south. Jesus didn't forbid women to join and be accepted so we would be wise to do the same!!!!

[Timothy Bonney]

When I was an American Baptist I knew several very fine women pastors who also happened to be some of the best pastors I've ever known. And in the UMC the percentage of women clergy is much higher and they are effect pastors, Superintendents and Bishops.

A search committee can search for what God wants for the church but it is amazing how often that search leads to what the church wants without very much real consideration of what that church needs. No system is perfect but lets not pretend that the call system always leads to God's candidate for the pulpit.

[Gene Scarborough]

Tim---

It's a breath of fresh air to have your good comments back with us!!!!

Thanks!

[Timothy Bonney]

Tim---

It's a breath of fresh air to have your good comments back with us!!!!

Thanks!

Nice to be back Gene. As to women in leadership in the church, my boss (Senior Pastor) is a man. Our boss, the District Superintendent, is a woman. She is the second woman in a row in that position. Her predecessor was a very fine leader and now pastors one of the larger UMC churches in Iowa.

In nearly every denomination besides the SBC and the Roman Catholic Church women make major contributions in leadership. I often wonder if this is one the SBC will regret down the road an make apologies for in the future.

[Neil Heath]

In nearly every denomination besides the SBC and the Roman Catholic Church women make major contributions in leadership. I often wonder if this is one the SBC will regret down the road an make apologies for in the future.

One can only hope, Tim, but I'm not holding my breath. It probably won't be in my lifetime, even if I don't hold my breath.

[Ed Pettibone]

In nearly every denomination besides the SBC and the Roman Catholic Church women make major contributions in leadership. I often wonder if this is one the SBC will regret down the road an make apologies for in the future.

One can only hope, Tim, but I'm not holding my breath. It probably won't be in my lifetime, even if I don't hold my breath.

Ed: In reality women keep many Catholic Parishes open. "Sister Fran" runs a parish with an average attendance around 125 up in north creek. Of the five churches in the town it is by far the dominant one. A Priest comes in for the sermon and administering the sacraments. Every thing else is left to sister Fran and the laity. Other churches help with the Food Pantry, the clothes Closet, and the baby's place. but Sister Fran and a monk (jack of all trades) by the name of Brother Jim is the one who keeps it all together. This is not unusual in rural areas. I think we may see women pastors in Catholic Churches in my lifetime. unless they start allowing priest to get married, first.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

I think we'll see reforms at some point in the RCC especially on the celibacy question. The shortage of priests will force the Church to reform, I think. But these reforms won't happen as long as Benedict is Pope.

[David Flick]

the fact that rhetoric about women in the pastorate isn't translating into women in the pulpit may very well be because God isn't moving churches to call women to the pulpit.

Oh come on, that is an awful argument.

We could use this logic here in so many different and equally ridiculous ways. Predominantly white churches aren't exactly in the business of calling OR even CONSIDERING African-American candidates.

With that fact, can we really leap to the conclusion that God isn't moving churches to call Black candidates to white churches? If so, what does that mean? That God's plan is segregated churches (black pastors lead black churches, white pastors lead white churches)?

That is, after all, what you're implying about women. That because churches haven't been "moved" or "led" to call a woman pastor, then that means that women in the pulpit is not part of God's plan, something that God desires, etc.

David to Aaron: Excellent reply, Aaron. I agree with you...

I haven't had a lot of contact with Baptists who attend churches with female pastors, so my perspective is based on anecdotal evidence, but from what I hear, and what I read, in some of the churches which have had the experience of a female pastor, it has not always been a delightful or, depending on how you evaluate "success" in ministry, a successful experience.

Here's the problem, Sandy. You often portray yourself as someone who has real insight to offer about moderate and progressive Baptists due to your past experiences. Yet, you just admitted that you don't even actually know any Baptist women pastors AND you've had little CONTACT with OTHERS who ATTEND churches with female pastors!

We all know many many many many churches that have had bad experiences with MEN pastors. Maybe the problem is MEN? Seriously, why try to link the "bad experiences" with the pastor's gender? What's that got to do with anything.

I'm curious to know what churches you're referring to. You were in Texas for many years and your experiences and reflections have always obviously been based on Texas. There aren't too many women pastors in Texas. The most prominent was, of course, Julie Pennington-Russell (my former preacher).

David: Another excellent reply. I heartily agree...

[William Thornton]

Give CBFMO credit for recognizing that the CBF partner seminaries and divinity schools educate and train scads of females for the pastorate, who then have to understand that they have scant chance of landing that position in an actual church. Give them credit for desigining a program that takes a baby step towards remedying that situation. The intensity of objection to it from some surprises me.

Would the objections BDW's ordained female friends be ameliorated by disclosure to the candidate? Would it not be helpful to these women to have expereince with church search committees.

And, BDW, could you elaborate more on what the objections were from your female friends?

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Does any one here have the actual wording of the Missouri plan for introducing search committees to female pastoral candidates?

I have an idea that every one here may be reacting to the article at http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/6778/53/ rather than to the actual proposal.

What is omitted where the ellipses are in this quote "include a woman candidate in the process ... treating her as a top candidate even if she isn't actually one of the top candidates," ? And would it make any difference to some of you if it read ( We encourage you to include women in you search process and treat all candidates coming in as equals.)

I do think the "even if she isn't actually one of the top candidates" could have been worded better. Personally I do not care for the idea of ranking candidates be they female or male, nor have I ever been a great fan of any affirmative action plan.

[Gene Scarborough]

What amazes me is that in most things women tend to do the real work while men want to supervise. Were it not for my wife as the hub of her Physical Therapy Department, they would constantly run out of supplies and have to hire 3 more people as fill ins for what she does as needed. Just as a good woman keeps the house together and takes primary responsiblity for child-rearing, she is capable of moving forward if the husband is absent.

I think it is a perception of arrogance that women should not pastor or lead in churches.

The Jews tried to keep women down along with other surrounding cultures. Over in Egypt it was another story. Women could inherit and own property and many were priests in cults only allowing women to participate while men could visit. What is even more interesting is that until women became archaeologists in recent years, no men gave much time or energy to disclose such a historical fact.

Are we scared they might out-do us fellows??????

[Big Daddy Weaver]

Give CBFMO credit for recognizing that the CBF partner seminaries and divinity schools educate and train scads of females for the pastorate, who then have to understand that they have scant chance of landing that position in an actual church. Give them credit for desigining a program that takes a baby step towards remedying that situation. The intensity of objection to it from some surprises me.

Would the objections BDW's ordained female friends be ameliorated by disclosure to the candidate? Would it not be helpful to these women to have expereince with church search committees.

And, BDW, could you elaborate more on what the objections were from your female friends?

I posted a link to the ABP story on Facebook. In addition to the link, I posted:

"Seems like this raises some ethical questions especially this part: "treating her as a top candidate even if she isn't actually one of the top candidates," AND this part: "If nothing else, this program would give women pastor candidates some valuable interview experiences,""

A female Baptist pastor friend of mine responded with the short one-liner: "This is ridiculously offensive."

Tim Dahl also left a comment in agreement with my initial comment.

A couple days later, Keith Herron replied in part to my post with this:

"I agree - it's condescending and I would hope churches are not told to do this on the basis that it's dishonest and dismeaning."

Herron is a pastor in Kansas City, MO. He is also the Moderator-Elect of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.

I haven't seen any public statements beyond the quotes in the ABP article. But I suspect this is being discussed behind-the-scenes by CBF leaders like Herron.