Vestal Announces His Retirement

[Dave Roberts]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

[Sandy]

Yeah, Ed, that's always the argument. Masses of Southern Baptist church members who can't think for themselves or give a rip about anything related to their church and its denominational affiliation have bought into "lies" and as a result, discharged from service a core of loyal, well loved, genteel, harmless, super-talented leaders who just had the best interests of the folks in the pew in mind. Those high dollar denominational jobs that they held on to for years, and the trustee boards stacked with their college and seminary buddies, and even their relatives, were not part of their motivation at all.

The pre-1979 record of the SBC's trustee boards and committees is proof enough of a convoluted, elitist aristocracy. People rotated from board to board, same names and faces over and over again. It's there in the record for anyone who wants to see it.

It wouldn't be hard for North Carolina to have the "fastest growing" CBF of any other state, since it doesn't appear CBF is growing in any other state. And how many of those North Carolina churches that are going to CBF are actually cutting their ties to the SBC? Yeah, I thought so. It is hard to see how an organization is "growing" if it can't convince its supporting churches that they need to be 100% committed, and not sit the fence. What have you left behind, really, if you are still sending your monthly check to the organization that you claim is "corrupt pottage?"

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy---

You are incorrigible and more than naive with respect to CBF---in NC or elsewhere.

Many of our churches have made complete breaks. We no longer use the SBC SS materials and are excited about the new things on Baptists Today.

We are not stupid and direct our giving directly to CBF since the plan allowing us to do so through the NCBSC no longer exists.

You are badly deceived by what you get from SBC writings about the situation---sorry!!!!

[Sandy]

Gene,
I was part of a CBF supporting church from 1992 until 2004 or thereabouts, and didn't miss a general assembly until 2002, when job obligations prevented me from attending. I'm not incorrigible about CBF, I've just been involved long enough to experience having some genteel, southern-accented wolf in sheep's clothing flash a genteel smile and say "How y'all doin'" to your face while they are inserting and twisting the knife in your back, and to learn a few lessons in what hoops you have to jump through and whose rear you have to kiss if you've got something some prominent person's relative wants. The irony of it is that I wound up in the CBF camp because of an incident that occurred shortly after I graduated from seminary in 1989 in which not having chosen a particular denominational political position turned out to be an incident that caused me a lot of frustration and pain.

I figured that CBF would be a safe refuge, and that theological perspective really didn't matter all that much there. Wrong on both counts. Being honest and trusting people with my feelings turned out to be exactly the wrong thing to do. So much for open mindedness and "freedom." That's a load of baloney. Maybe its the result of too much "southern" culture, but it has become clear to me that Baptists of any stripe, particularly moderates who had anything to do with the SBC prior to 1979 and have anything to do with CBF now, can't stand you if you do not think like them, talk like them, dress like them, do church like them, and especially believe like them. It is quite apparent to me that the blend of revivalistic spirituality and Biblical fidelity that characterizes the kind of Baptist I've always known, those individuals for whom the term "Bapticostal" was coined, is not only unwelcome in CBF circles, but it is deliberately and forcefully excluded. Well, that's fine with me. I don't miss it at all. But you do not need to tell ME that I am incorrigible and naive with regard to CBF.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Dave Roberts]

Sandy, I don't know where those cushy, high-dollar jobs were in the pre-1979 SBC. I had two seminary professors who left to return to the pastorate shortly after I graduated, and both went to considerably higher salaries than they ever made teaching at Southern Seminary. One was a full professor and the other was an associate professor. Another left SBTS to work in a clinical pastoral care setting that also was more lucrative than teaching in a Baptist seminary.

I have also served on the Baptist State Convention on North Carolina General Board and on the Virginia Baptist Mission Board (both volunteer elected positions that paid no salary) and have seen the raw budget figures for salaries and benefits. The salary scales in neither of them were "cushy." No one in those structures was feathering his or her own nest by working for those state bodies. Unless you have figures for those positions that paid so much, I think your fact-check fails.

[Sandy]

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy---

I must be away for a few days to tend to my 93 year old mother's needs.

Just want to exit with the fact that your profile tells nothing about you in detail. Would love to know more via private message.

I gather from other sources that you are into carismatic religion and that is OK---just don't impose your view of things as if it is totally accurate. Dave and I are both trying to tell you the truth about CBF and Baptist acivities we know personally.

[Ed Pettibone]

[David Flick]

.
.
Ed, due to my work schedule and other obligations, it's practically impossible for me to stay current with the discussions on BL.Com, let alone respond with written replies. About all I can do these days is pick and choose which/what to read from the numerous threads. That said, you have written a couple of outstanding posts in reply to Sandy. Both of these posts ( and ) are superb.
.
.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Thanks, Ed, for your concerns and prayers for my mother. For a 93-year-old she is doing well and has the good fortune--and wisdom of the ages--for buying a Nursing Home policy of the highest order to help with the high expenses of her care to the end of her days on this earth.

I'm glad to see this thread is not going as wild as the one on Bible reading makes you more liberal.

We both obviously suffer from spelling errors. Mine is partially due to lack of time to research spelling and the fact that spellcheck does not work for me in this application. Perhaps a member with more computer savey could help me. If I use my daughter's later model computer also a HP) it does work and helps me be more correct. Both of us would rather communicate over having exact spelling!

I especially appreciate your short history of your own theological / church journey. It give me a great appreciation of who you are and I validate you for your authenticity. Would love to know why you don't preach on Sundays where you are. It appears you have the gift or preaching.

"Carismatic" I define as one who "speaks in unknown tongues." It is highly emotional and has been used as "proof" of a higher walk with God. It has been a dividing factor in many churches and religious people since the 60's. It is clearly addressed by Paul in I Cor. 13 and Galatians 5. It is real and should be allowed under Paul's requirement that it build up rather than tear down any fellowship of Christians. Sadly, that seldom happens.

What amuses me most is the bru-ha-ha had by the IMB when their leader confessed to a "private prayer language." MIssionaries were fired over it. For a bunch of heathens claiming an "inerrant Bible," I am amazed they don't admit it is a real part of church history and biblical discussion which provides for it in a properly used way!

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Gene, I believe your definition of Charismatic is far too restricted you may find this link informative http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_Movement

[Gene Scarborough]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Gene I think where you wrote In addition the selection process of a new Moderator gets this update: It should be "in addition to the selection of a new National Coordinator, National Moderator Colleen Burroughs said... "

How about a link to your source ? I would like to see that report in context.

And as for Sandy he seems happy in the CMA, why not leave him alone?

[Sandy]

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy---

I like your wider definition of "charismatic." I think it is more accurate than just "speaking in tongues."

There are actually 2 places in Acts where the Holy Spirit indwelt the believers. A clear reading of the day of Pentecost event shows--as you wisely point out---people "understood in their own language." I attribute this as likened to beautiful and spiritual music. Each person is touched and understands its meaning in their own way. The words are secondary to the spiritual meaning. I don't understand Latin, but value old classics using that language.

The problem with the early church and today's pentecostals is that it is too often done for show rather than edification. Next, those having the gift view themselves as "superior believers." Next, they insist that without such a gift you can't be a real Christian. It's kind of like the CR takeover leaders and their attitude of superiority and insistance that those of us not seeing the Bible exactly as they do are lesser and unworthy of participating in the sharing of the Gospel exactly as they feel we must.

Arrogance and hubris are not reserved to just those who speak in tongues! I hope CBF does a better job of being open to differing views of ministry. I think that will be the key to ultimate success. I do not apoligize for viewing the SBC leadership as "heathen" since they have no respect for something clearly addressed and present in the Bible. You can't be an authentic inerrantist and kick out things you don't like!

[Sandy]

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy---

I will simply take the position of that Jewish leader who said, "If it is or God, you cannot stop it. If it is of Satan, then it will fail."

Let time tell us what is a more valid approach toward living the Christ-life.

[Dave Roberts]

The SBC used to have its annual convention rotating among about 7 or 8 of the largest convention centers in the country just to get the people in. Now it can meet in those that are no bigger than the ones in which CBF meets. Does that not say something about the real interest in the SBC?

[Gene Scarborough]

AND---decisions are basically made by the Executive Committee for rubber-stamping so----WHY BOTHER TO GO?

[Sandy]

[Ed Pettibone]