Vestal Announces His Retirement

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---I could not have said it any better!!!

Wise observation of sources to get a real picture! In NC there was always much discussion of "all things Baptist" with letters to the Editor and the new web edition's discussion under any article.

Norman Jameson was forced to leave / the discussion part of the electronic edition immediately terminated / the new Editor is now putting out a fluff piece---exactly the route of GA / SC and now into NC. Any convention-wide activities come from the "top down" rather than the "bottom up."

Best I can tell, this modus operandi is merely a replication of those Airport Meetings leading up to 1979!

AND who was it that put them together?????

[Gene Scarborough]

Today's report on CBF finances:



It shows a 15% shortfall---not bad in this busted economy---and they already curtailed spending to this same point to live within their means.

Just remember: CBF is a new enterprise with nothing like the reserves built up over many years by the SBC---and they are being honest about it!!!

[Sandy]

A 15% shortfall, even in this economy, in one year, should be a major red flag. Comparatively, receipts in the SBC were up slightly this year, and collectively have seen a shortfall over the past five years, including the depths of the recession, of less than 5%. It should also be noted that undesignated receipts, those that CBF keeps, were down by almost 19%.

And that, as much as Vestal's retirement, and the subsequent retirement of Terry Hamrick, raises a question that, after ten pages of discussion, still hasn't really been answered yet, and that's what the immediate, and long term, future holds for CBF.

The organization claims "about 1,800" contributing churches. Dividing the receipts into that number, the approximate contribution per church averages about $8,300. I know of at least one church that gives upwards of $250,000 annually, and that's probably at the higher end of the spectrum. But even if there are 18 to 20 at that level, and perhaps a hundred core churches that have separated from the SBC and give all of their missions dollars to CBF, if you do the math, and you get beyond that inner circle of churches, the average contribution per church per year shrinks down to less than $5,000.

As it appears, even now, CBF serves as a pass through for funding to its partner institutions, and that leaves some for its global missions support. But it is obvious that changes will have to be made. Fortunately, most of the partner institutions, the schools and other agencies, raise the majority of their own funds. And while its supporters, at least on this board, don't see survival as a long term issue (and I do), certainly there must be some concern over the fact that a 20 year old organization is seeing its already small budget shrink by 15% in one budget year.

It would seem that the first priority would be to solidify the support base, because that seems to be eroding. And I can't help but think that will involve the complicated, but necessary, task of getting churches off the fence. It will also involve the eventual job of raising up a generation of churches that have CBF roots without ties to the SBC. The conservatives have controlled the SBC completely for almost thirty years now, and all of the exiting that's going to result from that has been done, at least in the direction that CBF has gone. A dozen new churches here and there over low level state and associational battles won't be the silver bullet.

So what's CBF going to do?

[Dave Roberts]

Sandy, in looking also at the SBC statistics from the 2009 annual, there was a total of $392,000,000 received in distributable income from 44,000 churches which means that the SBC received an average from each church of just under $9,000 in a year. That doesn't sound promising either, by your definitions, especially when you consider mega churches in the convention that should easily give at least $1-million a year for the SBC. It means that a lot of churches are giving just a pittance for the SBC as well.

[Sandy]

[Dave Roberts]

Sandy, obviously you haven't been in VA or NC with CBF. In VA, many CBF churches average fewer than 100 in attendance, and the same is true in NC. There are larger churches, but the predominant group of churches that are contributing to CBF are not the larger city churches. Maybe your picture fits in TX, but it is not accurate in either VA or NC. I have preached in some of them that have fewer than 50 on Sunday. Maybe it's time to visit some of these. We also have some church starts in VA that are still small but seeking to grow in their contexts. Don't assume we are all in the mold of Dallas or Houston.

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy---

Your argument is pointless on so many levels:

1) Vestal and Hamrick have reached a reasonable time in their life to retire. In Terry's case he has been additionally experienceing terrible back problems and riding is the last thing a back patient needs to have a future free of agonizing pain.

2) The focus of the SBC is mega church operations. All their leaders are pastors of such. Ezell now faces trying to raise money from church like the one he pastored which was more interested in their own mission sending of teams and a great mistrust of the denominational mission program.

3) The great success of CP giving in the past was many small churches which could not afford to send their own teams or mission groups could participate vicariously by giving.

4) The help given churches pre-1979 by the SBC was based on a small church model. Now it is about church planting and gives publicity to the mega church with its "satellite churches"--all this based on control of churches to participate.

5) CBF is basing its methodology on cooperative missions and partnerships. Why should it fully fund things which are already being funded by other denominations? If you view yourself as "one among many gospel-sharing churches," you relieve yourself of high money requirements assuming you are the only denomination having the "inerrant truth."

6) The fussing and fighting in the SBC is rampant and seems to never end---I see NONE of this in the CBF!

[Sandy]

[Dave Roberts]

[Gene Scarborough]

It appears that Sandy has his mind made up and no amount of facts or reason will un-make it.

Good luck, Sandy. Why not just let time tell us who is being more Christlike in ministry---or more Pharisee-like!!!

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

I think we are being sucked in with the notion that throwing money at something = ministry.

CBF seems to be looking for authentic ministry over a big show---and that is good!!!

[Gene Scarborough]

[Sandy]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Dave Roberts]

Daniel Vestal offered a reflection yesterday that is worth disseminating:

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Gene asked if the idea of inter-generational SS includes youth and children the answer is yes. Think of the one room school, but starting around third grade with no upper limit on age.

[KeithE]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Randall Lolley is a wise observer of "things Baptist."

I like the way he describes the diversity of Baptists. As I have lived and worked in churches and state conventions of 3 SE states, I find his observation to be quite true!

Another generalization about Ga / SC / NC is GA is a big state similar to NC in size. SC is a small state and people seem to know one another more within it. GA was far more diverse and volatile than SC or NC. There you have the intersection of more seminary influences than the other 2.

SC and NC have a primary influence of SEBTS with others mixed in. Many of my buddies in SC came to NC for the freedom as SC was to follow GA with CR influence and takeover. Finally, in the early 90's, NC began to move Conservative despite the concerted efforts of Mainstream Baptists to keep the middle road. The fussing and fighting are basically over as the Biblical Recorder is now gone in the last year.

The influence of SEBTS is significant in NC. The fighting ended with the same motif as CBF: "There is a better way to be Baptist and loving."

The problem in all 3 states was the unwillingness of Moderate Baptists to be mean to the core and to demand a lock-step conformity of its people. We never could get the basic idea of winning: All parts must get together with a solid political front and decide early on who would be the candidate---and that candidate only appoint those of like mind to places of leadership.

The concept of AUTONOMY is too strong among Moderates to adopt a dictator mode of leadership. In NC the CBF is growing fast and stronger after the final battles for leadership. We would rather switch than fight!!! Attendance at the annual NCBSC meeting is withering and it is now a "rubber stamp" meeting to do the bidding of the Executive Committee. More fighting is taking place here at the Associational level with 2 in serious turmoil this last year. Again, it's the takeover mode at work in NC.

[Sandy]

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy---

It's the "twist" which the SBC continues to give their failures!!!!

They have lost respect of the public / have many churches dropping "Baptist" from the church's sign / they are fooling few in the general public just looking for love, acceptance, forgiveness in a world full of Pharisee Religion.

[Gene Scarborough]

New announcement of grant to CBF:



For those who want to predict the demise of CBF, here is a great indicator of its viability and good thinking!