Religion of Hate Now 'Fessing Up!

[Gene Scarborough]

[Gene Scarborough]

It has been my opinion that the "Religion of Hate" is nothing more than the emotional illness called "Reaction-Formation Psychosis."

It's most simple illustration is "Old Maid's Syndrome." This is the little lonely lady who can't admit to any desire for a man. Instead she is constantly calling the Police to report a stalker / peeping tom / a man hiding under her bed or in her closet. The reality is she strongly desires a man, but puts on a show of EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE! When it becomes psychotic it is a problem. After a while those who know her say, "She is one sick lady." The police start to ignore her after a dozen trips to her house. The same psychotic distortions are part of the shooting in Tuscon / schools / terrorism bombings.

I think it is part of our national syndrome in religion and politics. It is generated by the "wild childs" of the 70's and 80's trying to make up for the sex-drugs-rock'n roll lifestyle growing up. Instead of simply confessing their sins and going on with life Forgiven, they must find a flamboyant expression of their sick obsession with sin in their younger days. The thing which makes it sick is the obsession associated with it. It is another aspect of "working your way into God's Kingdom."

They are trying too hard and have not really accepted forgiveness and found Peace nor the Joy of Salvation. They are lookng for a Pharisee to tell them what to do in every way. They are flocking to mega churches for entertainment which offsets their dark, unforgiven souls. They gladly pay their money in the same way they are obsessed with the sins of homosexuality / liberals / abortion / Moslems / you name it. It is a grand outward show powered by their self-hatred for "sinning so much in their youth."

That's why our precious Autonomy is taken out of the SBC and why the CBF approach is so badly needed. It is why our politicians petended a show of unity after the politics and religion of hate has led to the shooting of an Arizona politician and many innocent people in Tucson. The organization and approach above indicates a few are starting to "see the light of hate." Many of us have divorced outselves from a religion of hate.

[Mrs Haruo]

[Tim Bonney]

[Gene Scarborough]

[Tim Bonney]

Gene,

I don't want to argue over polity. We are in different denominations and the polity is different. My point is that advocates of local church autonomy often gloss over how problematic it is. For example clergy abuse issues are very difficult to deal with in denominations where there is no higher body to deal with offending clergy. Churches which are mean and nasty to pastors also don't have to answer to anyone for their destructive behavior. Churches can choose to go right off the theological deep end (right or left) and there is no one there to call them on it. Local churches can become little self-centered kingdoms (or queendoms as the case may be) for power hungry people. And yes also autonomous churches can do some wonderful ministries etc.

It is in fact because of local church autonomy that the CBF can't just "pull the plug." They don't own the plug that needs pulling. You can't on one hand blame the SBC for everything and then on the other hand claim they have no power or control. One of them can't be true.

And again, I'm not trying to argue that Baptists should stop being Baptists and dump autonomy. What I am arguing is that each denominational system should try to be clear about the positives and negatives of the system they have.

[Gene Scarborough]

Timothy---

I think your points are basically valid. In the Autonomous approach wierd things happen in abundance. As the SBC has become a really strange hybrid monster, so has our current politic. It was conceived on a foundation of free choices with each citizen ideally able to rise to whatever level freedom might offer. It was a rebellion from the control and abuse of the majority in England and Europe. Now in both spheres "wierd" seems to be in more and more abundance. Lady Justice has taken the blindfold off and notates those with money and large churches get a pass to do as they please!

Somewhere in the middle ground seems to be a more reasonable place to be for me.

Even in Ordination there is cotrol. The excuse for not dealing with sexual corruption and abuse is just that---an excuse for not caring or controlling. Any Baptist clergy person is ordained by some group. I see no problem in sending an abuser back to his ordaining entity to examine and possibly revoke his ordination. It is an obvious solution to me and civil authorities can put them behind bars. In the same way Corporate heads and accounting firms have raped my mother and other retirees of about 40% of their investments, yet existing laws and penalties have not been applied.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

The problem is that I don't know of any Baptist churches with bylaws that describe any kind of process for defrocking a pastor. Nor do I know of any Baptist church that would feel bound by a decision of another church on such a removal of ordination.

The ABC has developed a recogition system that serves this purpose. But I have not seen any desire in the SBC or any other Baptist body to create such a system. And i know of no way for congregational polity to deal with aberrant behavior by local churches themselves.

[Gene Scarborough]

Gentlemen--For Ed = "gentlepersons"--

I was ordained by the FBC of Decatur, GA. The members of that Council signed my document so it is apparant as to "who" examined me and found me fit for ordaination. I know of cases where the Association is the one doing the ordaining. In the majority of cases it ultimately goes to formality in a local Baptist Church. Perhaps there should be liability law applied to anyone letting a fox loose in any hen house. Lost chickens and eggs cost the farmer much.

Timothy--you are totally right about the lose nature of ordaination within Baptist circles. Probably the best source of examination for criminal or abuse issues is the local police department. However, we well-know that the woman or girl is the one who "seduced" the Man of God----not!!! It always takes 2 to tango and in the majority of cases I believe male clergy tend to allow things to go over the moral line. A person with integrity knows where that line lies in most cases (given a man can't seem to supply 2 heads at the same time with enough blood to think).

On the other hand, the Roman Catholic Church with great power and clear lines of cotrol over local priests, is doing one of the poorest jobs in policing and correcting child and adult abuse. They would be smart to re-consider Celibacy as a requirement for the priesthood. It makes for an almost impossible clash of human lust and religious purity.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Gene why do you say Gentlemen with a upper case G but "gentlepersons" in lowercase ? And it seems to me you misread Timothy B., where did he say any thing about " the lose nature of ordaination within Baptist circles"?

What he did say was "The problem is that I don't know of any Baptist churches with bylaws that describe any kind of process for defrocking a pastor. Nor do I know of any Baptist church that would feel bound by a decision of another church on such a removal of ordination.

And he did point out that "The ABC has developed a recogition system that serves this purpose." Are you at all aware of what he is referring to as the "recognition system" with in the ABC-USA ?

[Mrs Haruo]

As a parent of daughter who went "A.C. - D.C" in high school and is now estranged from most of her family at the age of 30 something, I would like to see better oversight of youth leaders in churches. After growing up in Girl Scouting, and taking training as a leader, The comparative lack of safety standards and lax training, background checks and supervision of couselors at the church camp I volunteered to work a session at frightened and disghusted me. I made suggestions for better management of youth activities at the church my daughter and son and I attended when they were in late elementary and middle school, and was rebuffed or laughed at. We had one so-called "leader" who was so intent on impressing his girl friend that he left my 12 year old daughter and her friend, a guest of the church, behind at an amusement park gate at 10 pm at night. I had been assured that she would have a safe ride home, as I didn't have a running car at the time. No supprise that her friend's parents never let their daughter come to any more activities at the much touted "Teen outreach". A few months later, another guest of the group could have drowned when a prank on a beach campout went wrong. The parents who were supposedly chaparoning this outing could not be torn away from coffee by the campfire when they heard the screaming........"Kids will be kids" they said. I had gone along at the last minute when one of the other chaparones had a last minute family emergency. I dug the girl out of a hole dug in the sand as the tide was coming in. Many churches poo-poo the established kids organizations like Scouts or Camp Fire as "Secular"---- but my daughter is now bi- sexual and in mental treatment in a large part because of mistreatment at the hands of incompetent church youth leaders and my stupidity in putting my trust in them. I didn't hear the full story till years later.

[Tim Bonney]

[KeithE]

I would like to recommend very highly the book that speaks powerfully for a consistent religion of love/respect/tolerance/compassion/spirit guidance/listening prayer/reflective bible reading and most of all an inclusive attitude towards all human beings. It takes Jesus as shown in the Gospels as its primary source of purposeful life/ethics/relationship with God . Best CHRISTian book I've read in a long time and it is the opposite of a religion of hate being discussed in the early posts in this thread.

[Dave Roberts]

The question of the ordaining church having the right to revoke any ordination issued is correct--given our polity. The problem is that it developed in a more agrarain society with far less mobility than our present society. My ordaining church--the one in which I grew up--has not had any contact with me since my parents' deaths. The last time I preached there was 20 years ago, and they have no contact with me outside of emailing me the newsletter from the congregation. In our mobile society, many of us have crossed several state lines and serve in far different places from those in which we were ordained. That leaves a vast gap in our system. The whole issue of credentials is one that is almost a joke. No wonder churches want to look at education and experience and only ask, "Are you ordained?" The formal documents can be gotten almost anywhere and used everywhere.

[Gene Scarborough]

I think this is some of the most practical and important discussion I have ever seen on a blog. Ordination abuse and clergy abuse of naive children and adults is a core matter far more important than any theoloical debates going on today.

Mrs Harau (sp?)--I started my formal ministry as Youth/Education in 2 churches. I don't know of any more influentical spot nor helping spot in the church than with the youth. I still hear from some of mine. They have gone on to become clergy / educators / parents of children in college and young adulthood. The beat goes on. When we went off on retreats was the most precious time and I viewed my duty as that of a substitute parent making sure my children were safe. Like you have observed, retreats can be a place where girls get molested / stupid pranks get kids hurt or killed / without doubt lasting memories are formed. I have taken the same group which caused so much trouble they were told never to come back to the retreat place and had a great and responsible time with me. It's all a matter of having mature adults and good religious discussions over just a church-paid party to the beach or mountains.

Our other discussions deal with the same kind of responsibilities among churches with ordination. Whether it's Deacons / volunteer missionaries / clergy, to be ordained means "set aside for special service. Our traditionally "lose" system needs an overhaul. To the average citizen "Rev." has special trust attached to it. If that trust is to have any validity, the person carrying it must be worthy. Through my life I have heard a derisive comment many times over--"yeah, you can't trust a preacher to pay his bills / tell the truth / keep his hands off women / etc.

[Tim Bonney]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

I think the wise observer will note that "each tub should it on it's own bottom." In other words, just because you have a degree or position, you need to produce good fruit.

We are watching and we are not stupid. I like your take on this one---and with such we will not be fooled into thinking sour grapes ever produce good wine.

[Dave Roberts]

Reading through this thread, there are some observations that I feel are important. I've mentioned all of them in other threads in various contexts, but I don't know that I've ever brought them together.

First, churches need to be diligent in checking the references of any person they consider calling to any ministry position. I'm not just talking about the people listed on the resume'. Reference checking needs to go 2 or 3 levels beyond that. I had one church check with a member of every congregation I had ever served. That was not offensive to me.

Second, criminal background checks and sex offender record checks are in order not only for clergy but also for volunteers who work in sensitive areas with children and youth. Those provide a way of getting facts of any legal accusations and the disposition of those. It costs $25 to do that in VA, but it is money well spent.

Third, use common sense in checking schools that persons say they may have attended. I have known of churches who discovered that the individual who presented himself or herself as a graduate of certain schools had not spent a day on those campuses. Dare to check to at least see if they received the degrees claimed.

Fourth, churches need to take responsibility for not allowing leadership to be in one-on-one situations that might allow things to happen. So many churches put leaders in those situations without being concerned to enlist anyone else to share leadership roles in youth and children.

Fifth, when there are legally prosecutable violations that occur involving ministers in churches, see that law enforcement is involved. To me, it is the least loving thing that can be done to allow or encourage strongly that the person involved simply move somewhere else to avoid embarassment for the church. Legal reporting of sexual or physical abuse should be the standard for all churches.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

[Tim Bonney]