Time To Pull The Plug?????? What Say YE???

[Gene Scarborough]

Since the first days of fomal founding on the CBF the most important question has been---Should we formally leave the SBC and be totally separate????

Cecil Sherman, who was the first Executive, had the courage to leave and start something new. He had looked into the eyes of people like Adrian Rogers / Morris Chapman / Paige Patterson and found nothing but hate---and a steel hard determination to change, with Conservative Resurgence, the face of the SBC. I'm not sure CR even had a formal name at the time. It is rock solid now. After 40 years of change with few, if any, ethics attached.

40 years in the Wilderness is a long time. It took the Hebrews that much time to overcome their fears to enter the Promised Land Those fears were started with reports of "giants" in the Promised Land. No one wanted to go up against "giants." Archaeology has found not one skeleton of a real giant in 100's of years of digging. We can safely conclude the "giants" were in the minds of the scouts who reported them--and were believed--despite Moses declaring God wanted the Hebrews to possess the Promised Land!

The last few years of CR now find all our seminaries gone / most of our State Conventions are either gone or a separate Convention formed. How much longer will we let reports of "giants" keep us in the Wilderness of not declaring ourselves a different and real version of what the SBC has been througout its existence??? Now the SBC is totally redacting our history to "prove" CR was the real SBC from early days.

Cecil is gone / the SBC is changed / when is the time to "pull the plug" on our supposed Siamese Twin to which we are still attached? I think this is the year to be bold enough to enter our Promised Land!

What say YE????????????????????????????????????

[Ed Pettibone]

Gene where have you been for the past 20 years?

You might want to spend a day going through the archives of this CBF board. And then the archives of the rest of the BL.C site.

Youmay also want to look at http://www.thefellowship.info/ Note the questions being considered by the 2012 Task Force.

And have you registered for this summers Assembly in Tampa/ We Have.

[Dave Roberts]

I don't know anyone in CBF who is still looking back toward the SBC. In every way, CBF already is separate. Churches are still sometimes in local Baptist associations, but there is very little SBC even mentioned in CBF circles. The real problem is in local churches who want to belong to CBF but to placate some people in the church are holding onto dual alignment with the SBC. That is the most common linkage that I see. Local churches are the real holdout on this.

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---I am aware of the study and that is why I think it is time to get more serious. As much as I would like to, I can't afford to be in Tampa this summer. Hope the decisions are made which allow for formal separation.

Brother Roberts---I think we now fool ourselves with thinking any decision will split churches. Just make the break formal and let churches go wherever they want as they are doing now.

Honestly, I think the bottom line of the past has been the Pastors' fear of any controversy in the local church and running for safety over that fearful "giant" which is not as bad as most pastors fear. The average Baptist now should well know where he finds himself. Wise churches long ago established a "Denominational Relations Committee" for some trusted and wise people to monitor the situation and make reports / reccomendations.

Let's really be blunt about the biggest "giant" of all: Retirement money!!!!
Some fear they won't get as much out of CBF as with SBC = bull!!! Any retirement plan can be rolled to another plan without tax consequence. Many other plans by public companies offer better returns than the SBC or CBF. The plans for all tax-exempt non-profits are in the 403-B tax code. Any future contributions after retirement must come in as they do before---from a 403(b) qualified source. Well, any retirement preaching income is certainly from such a source and could be entered. Most preachers I know are taking all they can from retirement preaching just to make ends meet so that is mute.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed--

I have no qualms whatsoever with your analysis of what we are discussing. In an ideal sense you are totally right. Here in NC, however, many of our local churches still have no idea how wonderful the CBF is and how close to our actual heritage it walks.

The problem, I think, is a failure by CBF to inform average church members. Part of the reason is that people simply do not read anymore. Up until Dec. 31 our Biblical Recorder had an electronic verion where each article had a blog opportunity--a commentary section. That ended here last week.

Even with the commentary section there is a void between CBF and Mr. Average Baptist here. Part of the reason is the conscious attempt to delete the church subscription program with money tight. People just do not know the real CBF also because of the distortions thrown our way from the SBC. What we are dealing with is simple trust and trusting familiarity with our old and dead Convention called the SBC.

The only way many churches find out about the CBF is when they go to SEBTS for a Student Pastor and he puts them in the dilemma of letting him be "the king" or leave the church. Several good and participating churches of N. Roanoke Association are in handcuffs today and don't know how to get out. I cite the Momeyer Baptist Church in a "single business" crossroad outside Spring Hope. I visit at that store owned by one of the most prominent and traditional families in that church.

[Gene Scarborough]

(cont.)
The family with 2 brother and a cousin running that store talks with me of their frustration:

1) The town is so small they don't need another church
2) The cost in money and emotion of leaving their beloved church is too great
3) Their SEBTS "model king pastor" continues to stay despite their constant debate with him
4) He views his call as one to change them and they do not have a history of kicking out Pastors
5) They need some direction as to "what to do" with this Pastor who is gaining more ground the longer he stays
6) They are getting tired of being designated as "that family which opposes everything"
7) The slow but sure joining of new families is keeping the church in handcuffs of non-understanding
The core of this problem is average people in NC with no presentation of CBF as a separate entity
9) That problem is based on not one formal and public presentation of CBF as now being separate from the SBC

How do we solve such lack of clarity with the average Baptist who just goes and gives in trust?????

We know clearly what you are saying, but the average Joe Baptist still does not because we don't "pull the plug!"

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

I think you are totally right about your assessment! We have so totally convinced people that the SBC is the best and almost all the money goes to missionaries that they can't believe it is no longer true.

I have always been in GA / SC / NC where Baptist roots run more than deep. We took pride that our churches were the biggest and finest in the town / we gave and gave to missionaries / our children were brought up in RA's / GA's / and Sunbeams. We had the missionaries come and speak. I went to RA camp and Ridgecrest. We were the "best" church and took such pride in it!!!!

In NC and most other places CBF decided to say nothing in response to SBC accusations. We just let people start making up their minds with a great fear of anything that might cause trouble in the local church. Pastors have not been like yours in Indiana. They just kept quiet and waited to see what the Denominational Relations Committee wanted to do.

NC, with CR's stronger and stronger desire to control, is totally CR run. Many large churches are leaving quietly. No one wants to do what Conservatives are doing = make an active effort to let our lay people meet with others in other churches and tell it like it is and explain why their church decided to leave.

"Pulling the plug" in my mind equates to seeing SBC churches as lost and needing evangelizing and winning. Sharing exactly how little money now really goes to missionaries. Divulging how much affluence SBC officials enjoy---using mission money. We need to be speaking the truth in love and not cowered into a corner while the SBC and NCBSC stone us with lies.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

I think you give some fair assessments. I would not argue with them much. The SBC is in bad trouble. At the crossroad of new leadership in the EC / NAMB / IMB, only the last remains unfilled. We clearly know where 2 of 3 have gone = a mega church insider with absolsutely NO experience nor proven giving track record to SBC missions. Ezzell's church was exactly the opposite of what "cooperating church" should be.

The Great Commission Task Force was formed in admission that SBC things were falling apart and major change was needed at the core. So they presented a "no change" document with 15-year moritorium on any honest discussion as it formed. The SBC has now set its course in stone and absolutely not open to any constructive criticism. I found this out quickly at SBC Voices.

The only thing the CBF and SBC have in common is "Baptist" in the name. Having such name identity, it is time, in my opinion to become consciously and aggressively a different kind of Baptist to a still naive public. By "aggressive" i mean quit sitting back and expecting others to come to us. Show in far more places the joy and peace of associating with people who actually love over commanding and controlling.

[Gene Scarborough]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

ED--Great questions and observations!!!

You are TOTALLY right about Seminaries pumping their candidates into prominent churches. My father experienced terrible discrimination as a late 1930's graduate of Andover-Newton. They would never just say, "He's an outsider and we don't want such in prominent churches." What they would say is, "Can you trust a man who is not a Southern Graduate?" It was subtle and worked in several churches considering him int GA and SC.

This was said from each of the Seminaries against the other as a matter of fact. Institutions know that if they want to grow and succeed, that success is dependent on graduate support of their Alma Mater. Also their graduates meeting wealthy people steers toward the school. It also provides the school with a sense of security not easily taken from it.

When I went to SEBTS in 1967, it had the "liberal" reputation. I found it to be quite middle-of-the road! A fellow classmate who left Southern for SEBTS did so because he found it overly quashing his desire for a balanced educaton. I think he was a University of SC graduate. Another who chose SEBTS with me was from Furman. Being from Emory and Altizer's recent "God Is Dead" stuff I certainly knew first hand what "liberal" was like. SEBTS was far from "liberal" in my experience. For me it was many steps below what I expected from a Graduate School level of education. I viewed it as a "glorified college" where graduates from colleges with a Religious Degree had a very easy repeat of the college stuff.

My father was associate DOM in Atlanta when Charles Stanley became Pastor. He got on staff under Dr. Roy McClain to appease the conservative segment of that church. When Dr. McClain had to retire from an emotional collapse over his son's death in Viet Nam, Stanley promised not to seek the Pastorate should they ask him to preach. Immediately he set about to work behind-the-scenes telling memebers he knew God was wanting him at Pastor. It resulted in a terrible churh split and an actual swing of the fist at him by the man who got his promise not to seek the Pastorate!

[Gene Scarborough]

(cont.)
With the variety of Faculty and reputations, aspiring students always had some choices which were consistent with Autonomy. Now we are pretty much a "cookie cutter" Seminary assembly line. CR now owns them and most are proceeding with one goal in mind = please whoever is running CR right now. All know their future lies in jumping to the tune of the CR drum beat. That's not good in my opinion. SEBTS has few professors with credentials from well-known US educational (or overseas) institutions. They are mostly the likes of Criswell College / LIberty / Bob Jonse / etc.--all with the proper ultra-conservative reputation. I don't think Danny Aikin would consider a Harvard or Andover-Newton Doctorate to join the Faculty.

With respect to NCCBF:

There is going on right now "great consternation" in NC over the Wake Forest Baptist Church of Winston-Salem calling an open lesbian as Pastor alongside another on who is already Associate Pastor. In October 2000 they drew fire over their blessing of a union of lesbians. The SBC claims the CBF is a bunch of gay-loving infidels, but in 2000 here are the reported comments:

[url]Both sides question Wake Forest union
___WINSTON-SALEM, N.C. --Despite extensive criticism and a threatened severing of ties with the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina, Wake Forest University allowed its Wait Chapel to be used for a same-sex commitment ceremony Sept. 9.
___One of the women in the lesbian couple is a student at the university's divinity school, although neither the university nor the divinity school endorsed the ceremony.
___University trustees had asked Wake Forest Baptist Church not to perform the ceremony in the chapel, but they did not prohibit it because the chapel is routinely used by the church for worship. To instruct the church in what it may or may not do in worship would violate the doctrine of local church autonomy, they said.
___The ceremony affirming the relationship between Wendy Scott and Susan Parker was officiated by Richard Groves, senior pastor of Wake Forest Baptist, and five others.
___"We don't believe as human beings we can bless anything," Groves said. "Only God blesses, and that's what happens at heterosexual marriages. We also respect the individual rights of believers as their own priests before God, and we respect the right of individuals to participate as they feel led."
___Both conservative and moderate Baptists denounced the church's action and wondered why the ceremony was allowed in the university's chapel.
___"For anybody who even remotely cares about the word of God and the will of God, this event serves to differentiate between what Bible-believing Baptists believe and do and what all of our critics among Baptists believe and do," said Paige Patterson, president of nearby Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and immediate past president of the Southern Baptist Convention. "I do not suggest that everyone who disagrees with the Southern Baptist Convention promotes homosexual unions. But I do mean that we have come to a day when the word conservative needs to be defined, not just by affirmation, but on the basis of what one will tolerate."
___David Currie, director of Texas Baptists Committed, has been accused by SBC leaders of endorsing homosexuality, a charge he has vehemently denied. Asked about his reaction to the same-sex union ceremony, Currie replied: "That's a crazy thing to do. I wouldn't support it."
___And although Wake Forest Baptist Church is affiliated with the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, CBF Coordinator Daniel Vestal also has spoken strongly against homosexuality.
___"I believe homosexuality is wrong and contrary to Scripture," Vestal said in statement issued this spring. "I believe marriage is holy before God, and I'm not going to do anything that will undermine the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman."
___Although the Wake Forest church broke its ties with the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina and the Southern Baptist Convention several years ago, the university itself retains loose ties with the state convention.
___But even that loose connection could be endangered now, said Bill Boatwright, a spokesman for the state convention. "It's certainly not going to help the relationship."

Baptist Standard

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[Gene Scarborough]

(cont.)
Now, should NCCBF keep quiet and not clearly show their position on this issue?????

Every time such issues portray us as "those liberal Baptists," it should be made more clear that CBF as a whole is far from "liberal." Instead we are a group of Baptists who refuse to require lock-step conformity for churches to participate together in missions. We are generally NOT advocating homosexuality nor hiding the child abuse and behind-the-scenes immorality in many conservative churches of the SBC. Even Adrian Rogers paid some $50,000 at his behest to cover such events at his church with a Staff Member!

In reality, behind much of the homophobia and sex abuse, is a group of "overly righteous" people who pretend to be perfect when no one is without their clay feet. It concerns me greatly when churches become such a bunch of Pharisees Jesus called them "whitewashed tombs full of dead men's bones." It is a "thing in this day" to pretend undue righteousness and require it of Politicians / Preachers / Coaches / etc.--anyone in a public prominent position. Yet we let Ronald Reagan get a pass on the Iran-Contry arms for hostages deal = "I can't remember!" = bull hockey!!

When I read the comments in the USA Today blog concerning public failure of religious leaders it gets about 90% comments from people who think modern mega church and religious right stuff is nothing but pretence and blunderbuss. That old NC sage, Carl Sandburg, wrote a concise Ode -- "To A Contemporary Bunk Shooter" many should Google. It speaks the words of a majority in America who now think organized religion is about money and pretense.

If CBF will become more "authentic" I think we stand a chance to overcome all the false accusations. Part of INTEGRITY is to clearly tell people in public media opportunities who we really are. We just stay quiet and let the water roll off our backs---to drown naive people looking for some religious integrity!!!!

[Neil Heath]

[Gene Scarborough]

Doesn't DR??? Patterson ASS-u-me much!!!

That's why we are in our trouble now = not the first "survey" among Baptists to determine what WE believe / plenty of airport and back room closed door meeting to tell us what we must believe to be acceptable to the CR folks.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

I'm a newcomer to this blog so am unfimiliar with your positions, but am pretty sure I know them.

I did the DR??? thing because, although Patterson has the degree, he does not demonstrate any openess/knowledge which a valid DR should have. It's like J.D. Gray did with Elliott on the Genesis hoopla---a man with an earned doctorate from a recognized school for academics should surely know "myth" means, not "fairytale," but telling a basic truth in story form. Gray inflamed average church members with little theological sophistication to gain a hearing and fulfill his lust to be President of the SBC. He got both, but we are left with BF&M rising to creedal status when the 1960's model was to defend against the new biblical criticism out of German schools being taught in our seminaries. Just because it is being taught, true graduate-level students should have enough discernment to pick and choose without "losing their faith."

My use of "authentic" is meant to refer to "authentic Baptist Principles." What Patterson, et al, are doing is to now redact our history to fit their mold. They take theologial minutia and use it to anger and separate folks who used to be cooperating on missions which, I believe, is the basis of COOPERATIVE Baptist FELLOWSHIP = working together in a spirit of trust and love.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

ED---

You and I are 2 peas from the same pod! You have expressed above EXACTLY why I enjoy every CBF meeting I can attend! You really catch my eye with the NYC meeting coming up. I am hoping to get some Grant money shortly to help me recover my business position in this failed economy (30% earnings for the last 4 years). Should I get such before the meeting, I need to take a break and check out Tree Surgery in the NE for ideas and a lift machine I intend to purchase. Your friends are already my friends.

You are in an area where we can easily define ourselves to the public without reprisal. Sadly, NC is far different. I am in an area where SEBTS is pumping their students and control model into every church they can. In addition, they are trying to define and demean the CBF as a bunch of EXTREME LIBERALS which we certainly are not. This is why I think it is time to clarify in any media situation possible WHO WE REALLY ARE. In addition, the SE is one of the fast growing areas of the country where many move in / find a church they never knew before with Baptist on the sign / have no basis to realize there are very great differences between the SBC and CBF.

Where you are not that compelled to define us more clearly, I see a great need here to declare our formal separation from the SBC. CBFNC has had quite a few large churches move our way because the CR takeover of this state clearly shows church members--at last--EXACTLY what the SBC has turned into. Here it took the presence of unadulterated takeover to prompt them to move. I think they would have moved much earlier, had we stood more publicly for what we really are.

Had we had that courage, NC might have had enough united power in Messengers to still have a place for us in the NCBSC. A valient fight was fought, but we quickly tire of political battle and at the core our sense of freedom has had a place in NC.

[Gene Scarborough]

(cont.)
There is a practicle reason for making a clear break, in my view. It deals with our desire to fund missions more.

This economy has every church suffering. Giving a tithe from a significantly reduced income translates to churches having to live off less. Fixed local expenses mean cuts in mission giving and local budgets. The only real solution is reaching out for new members whose gifts increase the church's gifts to missions.

We have 2 choices: grow and keep up / sit and moan putting more pressure on current members to give more when they simply can't.

I think we are like a complacent and plateaued church which is not growing. We just sit back and say, "If they want to come they will." A wiser choice is to say, "We have something different / more full of freedom and joy / come on over and give us a try if your are unhappy where you are."

The JOY of being Baptist has gone away from the SBC. This year was supposed to be their great step forward to correct the errors on control and Autonomy. It is now worse than it was before at the SBC. Instead of getting back to basics which helped them grow, they are just chopping more heads at the NAMB---and we could use those administrative skills at CBF, but are struggling ourselves.Just at Keith Parks found a happy home with CBF, many others from the SBC could help if we could afford to hire them.

As Keith Parks found what he had lost, a clear break would give a choice to many looking for our joy and peace whenever we join together and meet. God does not "bless a mess." Right now we don't have such!!!!

[Gene Scarborough]

Here is another thing CBF seems to have failed to note nor post to Baptist churches not quite believing things have changed:



Toward the end around p. 256 is a report from the San Antonio SBC meeting a few years ago. In essence is shows a move to no longer honor the Priesthood of the Believer. It attempts to make the Pastor the King of any church following the SBC model.