Time To Pull The Plug?????? What Say YE???

[Ed Pettibone]

[David Flick]

[William Thornton]

This is my first post on the CBF forum. I get the CBF newsletter, used to get the Georgia CBF group's newsletter before they folded up their tent. I've attended parts of three CBF assembly meetings. BLife started this forum with the idea that CBFers could talk among themselves. If, after this post, you would rather me not even offer an opinion, I'll disappear.

A further round of budget and personnel cuts has just been announced by the CBF. The CBF as a national entity may not have a long future. What I read, and allow here for selective reading, makes the CBF look like a religious organization whose function is to provice social services on behalf of a small number of churches who would rather not give money through SBC channels. Secondarily, the CBF provides an outlet for fellowship and participation for pastors who would never be elected to or serve in capacities in the SBC. The CBF's success story is their help in founding and supporting of a number of theological schools as an alternative to the SBC's six. These are viable independent of the CBF.

So, why have a national CBF organization? I cannot give a good answer and, if declining support among churches is evidence, neither can the CBF.

Pull the plug? It may already have been pulled.

[Gene Scarborough]

Thanks, William. As far as I'm concerned all should be welcome here.

You are right about all major denominations having financial issues these days. The Recession just became "The Great Recession" in public pronouncements during this last month. For me, as a small business owner making 30% of what he did before the "recession," it has been a "Great Depression" since day one = world wide / serious Wall Street losses / banks bought out rather than simply closed / etc. The ONLY thing which keeps us out of soup kitchens and tent cities all across this nation is the extension of unemployment payments X 4 years and growing.

If we keep this up, there will be the same inflation we saw after Johnson fought the War in Viet Nam and War on Poverty simultaneously. They spent $10 for every $1 collected in taxes. The Kingfisher of Amos 'n Andy fame put it simply: "If yo out go exceeds yo in come / you up keep will be yo down fall!" That is Economics 101.

The facts are---!0% of a 30-70% reductions of earnings is just that much less. What is really surprising is not the required reductions everywhere, but that it is not worse in religious circles!!!

I hope more people will comment as you make wise observations!!

[Dave Roberts]

Just to offer a counterweight to William's gloom and doom for CBF--I participated last week in CBFVA Coordinating Council meeting, and CBFVA is doing much better financially than in several years. I realize that national gifts are still down, but there is growth in the funds coming through CBFVA and an upbeat spirit in the Commonwealth.

[William Thornton]

[Mrs Haruo]

I think a little cross-pollination between factions of the Baptist family is important. Otherwise you end up warring factions in opposite ends of the universe.

[Gene Scarborough]

The CBF report Mr. Thornton gives shows a 20% shortfall in income for 2 consecutive years. In light of an overall economy depriving most small businesses of 30-70% of former earnings, this is a source of concern, but not panic.

I do note that exact details of salaries paid or percentage size of the cut, we don't have as full a picture as we might. We also know that 30% of the NAMB personnel in Atlanta's Affluent Alpharetta were let go with generous separation packages. Comparing the ornate facilities of the SBC operation to the modest accomodations on the Mercer campus which I have seen, lets me know there is little wasted on ostentation at CBF. If a religious group is truely in a minister mode, fancy headquarters should match that servant mode, I think.

Tight budgets in local churches, like in every family, dictate cutting back on any waste and doing what is essential. It would be much nicer if the two agencies could cooperate more. Likely, if truth be known and both organization's statistics were put together, Baptist losses in total numbers are not a severe as some posit.

At least in NC, numerical growth by churches participating in CBF is on the increase. When the existing churches are doing all they feel led to do, the only option is to encourage more and more people and churches to partner with ministry which suits them best.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: I am missing something Gene. When you say "Tight budgets in local churches, like in every family, dictate cutting back on any waste and doing what is essential. It would be much nicer if the two agencies could cooperate more. Likely, if truth be known and both organization's statistics were put together, Baptist losses in total numbers are not a severe as some posit." What two agencies are you talking about?

[Gene Scarborough]

The 2 entities are the SBC and CBF. CBF is composed of people who were formerly SBC leaders. A split became inevitable and the CBF was put together.

The CBF is growing, at least in NC, and I think Rev. Roberts is reporting the same in VA. Both these states are most highly influenced by the SEBTS graduates as well as those of BTSR / Duke / Campbell / Wake Forest. As a result the CBF pastors know full well who and what they are. The SEBTS grads along with LIberty and Heritage folks form the conservtive school block.

I think, as far as pastors go, the differences are clear, but most don't want to ovesee a mess in their local church. The typical conservative pastor does not really care since he perceives himself as a King of the congregation. Those with a Servant Pastor outlook are sensitive to the point they will work things through more slowly if they can.

These 2 states of NC and VA may be the most real locus of the main question I posed in the beginning--should we try and cover the difference and ignore it or---Is it time to pull the plug????

[William Thornton]

The national CBF has had budget woes since way before the 2008 meltdown.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed--

I love ya, man, but you have not become intimate enough with the current SBC leaders to appreciate what Cecil Sherman was citing. I was the Associate to Cecil's Associate at Asheville First. I have known the guy intimitely since about 1973. He was conservative, but not "their kind of Conservative."

The problem we have is idolitry of SBC. We were so enchanted with Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong that no one would admit the new leaders of the SBC would make them stay home and raise babies. They would never be allowed to be more than subservient to the men. DOES ANYONE REALLY THINK LOTTIE OR ANNIE WOULD SIGN THE BF&M 2000???? Sherman looked those new guys in their eye / participated in the Ridgecrest Peace Committee Conference on Inerrancy / listened to their behind-door discussions in the Peace Committee and was insightful enough to know it was their way or the highway. He resigned and walked away!!!

Our problem as "moderates" is that we are too nice and want to believe that when people say something they will abide by it. It is like Chamberland believing Adolph Hitler meant what he said about having no designs on Europe beyond the borders of Germany. No sooner had he returned with glowing reports of cooperation than Hiler let lose the bombs and planes "he did not have" and invade Poland and Czechoslovokia. Some people can lie with smile on face a la Paige Patterson.

Old Cecil knew when masters of deceipt were about. So did many others. The trouble was we had pumped the CP and Mission Offerings to the point we actually believed Missionaries rather than Administrators were supported by it. Anyone who sill believes there is no basic difference between CBF and SBC has the insights of Chamberland, in my opinion.

I simply think----IT'S TIME TO PULL THE PLUG OFFICIALLY!!!! WHAT SAY YE????

[William Thornton]

[Dave Roberts]

[Ed Pettibone]

Gene Scarborough wrote "Our problem as "moderates" is that we are too nice and want to believe that when people say something they will abide by it."

Ed; Speak for your self Gene, I have had no qualms about questioning a good bit of what you have posted here. Again there is no plug to pull and it seems you know that when you say "Anyone who sill believes there is no basic difference between CBF and SBC has the insights of Chamberland, in my opinion" . But then with your your scatter gun hit and miss style I seldom have much of an idea what you want to convey, such as when you say. Here is a sample "The problem we have is idolitry of SBC. We were so enchanted with Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong that no one would admit the new leaders of the SBC would make them stay home and raise babies." Who are the 'we" to whom you refer, and I think maybe you mean idolatry. And shoot I am still enchanted by the stories of Annie and Lottie. And the truth is many men in their day where not happy about either of them "assuming the work of men". Then you jump from Annie and Lottie to say "I was the Associate to Cecil's Associate at Asheville First. I have known the guy intimitely since about 1973." And He was conservative, but not "their kind of Conservative", What is your point ?

Again Gene there is no plug to pull. I guess I should set up a macro for that.

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed--

I don't mind your questions, but they are showing a track which does not change, nor do the questions really help us move forward. We have different perspectives with me being in deep / old / NC Baptistland--you being in a more new territory not so steeped in SBC tradition. WE HAVE NOT pulled the plug with the SBC and need to make a decision in the near future in my view.

The "WE" I refer to are those still putting up with and supporting the SBC change with no real clue as to how great it has become. The new stuff in the NC Gaston Association and the Association losing its building to Paige Patterson are but 2 more steps toward the SBC having to control all---and demand churches support it financially.

Now, I'm sure readers know where each of us stands. Let's quit the circle of personal perspectives and give more readers a chance to add their perspective.

I would appreciate it if you quit being so much of a "word analyst" and catch the wider intent of my writings here. You are missing my points by being overly picky and argumentative for argument sake, I think.

[Gene Scarborough]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

This has been a great thread of input about the CBF / SBC relationship. I think we could use some more input as time draws closer to the national meeting at the 20-year point.

Should part of that agenda be the discussion and possible formal separation of the CBF??? We who have participated know it has been a "new kind of Baptist National organization" from day 1. However, in the traditional home states of the SBC, it is still not that clear to the average Baptist church member---unless the Pastor and Denominational Relations Committee has made it clear. I think CBF needs to find ways to "make it plain."

[Ed Pettibone]

Guess who: Should part of that (CBF Assembly) agenda be the discussion and possible formal separation of the CBF??? We who have participated know it has been a "new kind of Baptist National organization" from day 1. However, in the traditional home states of the SBC, it is still not that clear to the average Baptist church member---unless the Pastor and Denominational Relations Committee has made it clear. I think CBF needs to find ways to "make it plain."

Ed: That is one reason why we (Trudy and I) put our name tags in ABC-USA tag holders that hand around our neck. And the Tags do have your home city & state on them. The Program has A time and room number for each state and region. We in BFNE always have some visitors from other states or regions. Our BFNE Spring meeting Here in Burnt Hills is probably to late (May 6& 7) for BT to carry a story before the assembly. But I have mentioned that John Pierce will be one of our speakers. several tines on these pages. The Oklahoma CGF news letter has had one or More stories about T and Cathy Thoma visiting our meetings. Baptist Today has carried a Stories about Metro Baptist Church and its ministry in the Hells Kitchen area of NYC The Fellowship magazine recently carried a story About Ronnie Adams of Metro and his work with AIDS patients. Do you tell SBC folk about such CBF ministries?

Come on if you think CBF is not doing enough PR give us some better ideas than some sort of separation from an entity to which we are not connected. Baptist Press does a pretty good job of making it clear that CBF is not a part of the SBC. They do not always tell the truth about why that is, but it is hard for me to believe that any one reading BP does not know by now that CBF and the SBC are not connected.

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

Haven't you and I dominated this conversation enough??? Please let some others comment. We know full-well where you are coming from.

I stand firmly behind the need to make our separation more clear and better known in public media. It matters greatly in the deep South where I reside---and many in the deep South have no clue what the CBF really stands for!!!!

[Dave Roberts]

In some areas, churches do not want to pull away totally from the SBC simply because they want to continue to participate in local associations. In my area, some have held on simply to keep in the good graces of the association because the camp property they have helped develop over the last 40 years is now worth more than $2-million, and they do not want to lose the use of it or their interest in the property if it were ever sold. Not a good reason, I admit, but one I have heard from several people over the years. Likewise, local bonds in WMU groups keep some of the ladies from wanting a total separation. It's time to let go and proceed where the hearts of people are. Many of them are with CBF except for one of these little provisos.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]