Future of CBF?

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Future of CBF?

Postby Bruce Gourley » Tue May 11, 2010 9:11 pm

Recently, some moderate Baptist leaders discussed the future of CBF.

So, where should we look to see what the broad CBF movement will look like 5 or 10 years down the road?
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Re: Future of CBF?

Postby Tim Dahl » Tue May 11, 2010 9:51 pm

Bruce Gourley wrote:Recently, some moderate Baptist leaders discussed the future of CBF.

So, where should we look to see what the broad CBF movement will look like 5 or 10 years down the road?


I would like to see more of a church planting movement take hold. I really believe that will be a boon to the CBF. We have to convince the member churches that they are meant to multiply, not just expand. I've always like the CBF missional stance. Incarnating Christ to the culture is right on the money. If CBF churches can actualize that, then the future is bright, imo.

Vestal was right about churches partnering across the spectrum. I think we will find more of that. Just today, I had a prayer time with a local Nondenom and an Assemblies minister. We are all in the same area, have a similar love for the community, and seem to have similar points of focus. I can guarantee that we will partner on things together, while my convention brothers and sisters will still be doing the same ol' - same ol'.

Things, they are a-changin'.

Tim
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Re: Future of CBF?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Wed May 12, 2010 9:25 am

Bruce Gourley wrote:Recently, some moderate Baptist leaders discussed the future of CBF.

So, where should we look to see what the broad CBF movement will look like 5 or 10 years down the road?


Ed: Bruce just what does the story to which you linked about Daniel's views, have to do with what was discussed at Callaway Gardens . I find absolutely nothing in that item that Daniel has not said in other forums where I have been present and that has not previously been reported by ABP, Ethics Daily, to some extent BP, on the CBF website and in the secular press.

And Tim D., I do not think that a purely financial basis CBF can out plant the SBC nor do I think we need to at this point in time. What we need to do IMNSHO is to make our selves available to assist (not necessarily lead ) existing churches to revive. Nowhere in the Great commission do I hear "Go Plant Churches with your label". When I say that we can not out plant the SBC, that is on a pure financial basis. What I here in the Great commission is, go - make loyal followers , up on evidence of a true desire to follow me immerse them and teach them in all that I have taught you. Due to my much moving (Indiana, Georgia, Alabama, So. Carolina, Alabama, Arkansas, Kentucky, Indiana, Ohio, Florida, Kentucky, Ohio and New York plus travel in several other states. I am persuaded that there are very few places in the US where new church plants are needed. Most of the church planters I have known have of necessity been bi-vocational. Why should CBF not enable folk to utilize the same skills knowledge and abilities to become Bi-vocational long term church revivalist?

Of course I envision the past, present and future of CBF as an enabling movement working primarily with most stripes of Baptist wherever God opens doors. At times we have and will find it fruitful to also partner with other Christian organizations. One of our strengths is in the formation of Partnerships that may be renewed from time to time or terminated, rather than till death do us part marriages with other groups.

As Daniel has said consitantly "The common denominator for CBF churches, he said, is that, “We share a passion for the Great Commission and Baptist principles of faith and practice.”
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Re: Future of CBF?

Postby Bruce Gourley » Wed May 12, 2010 10:49 am

Ed, here is a story directly about the Callaway event. The previous link points to Daniel's comments following the event.
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Re: Future of CBF?

Postby Tim Dahl » Wed May 12, 2010 10:58 am

Ed, I'm sorry you misunderstood my post. I fully take responsibility for not writing with clarity and succinctness. In no way do I desire to "out plant" the SBC. Actually, I wasn't thinking of the SBC at all in regards to the CBF future. If I made misleading statements about a desire to out plant the SBC, I truly apologize. I greatly desire to see conversations develop about the CBF in which one never encounters a word about the SBC.

Also, again I must attest to my lack of clarity in writing. My lack of mentioning revitalizing of current dead and dying churches doesn't mean that I'm against it. Not at all. However, since the questions was about the "Future of CBF," then I must disagree with you about branding. That tends to be very important when we are talking about the continued existence of a current institution. It will be because of the CBF brand, that people will want to be a part of it...or not. If the brand is about incarnating Christ in culture and church multiplication (just to name a couple), then I believe that will be a huge plus. I realize that some people may grimace at the use of a secular term, such as "brand," but I still think it is relevant..whether or not we choose to use that word, or some baptized phrase.

I really do think we miss the mark when church planting isn't a greater part of our strategy. I believe there is a great blessing when churches choose to plant other churches, and not get worried about their own enlargement. There seems to be something about helping others, both individually and corporately. God chooses to bless us when we bless others, including in the area of church planting. I also believe that the local church is just as much an organism, as it is an organization. Organisms are meant to reproduce, to "be fruitful and multiply," if you will. Yes, we are individually called to be making disciples as we go; and I also believe part of that is an effective church planting strategy. Not every church is made for every person. I would like for us to get out of a competition mindset, and into a multiplication mindset.

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Re: Future of CBF?

Postby Tim Dahl » Wed May 12, 2010 5:43 pm

Bruce Gourley wrote:Ed, here is a story directly about the Callaway event. The previous link points to Daniel's comments following the event.


I have to admit, I get a little queasy when I hear the name Baugh thrown around.

I understand that he was a leader in the moderate movement in the SBC. I understand that their foundation still gives lots and lots of cash for moderate causes. I get it that Mrs. Baugh now heads things up, and is a powerhouse in her own right.

But, I can't help remember when Dr. Foster came into the student lounge (at the old Truett Seminary), almost to tears. Word was finally getting around that Dr. Creed was losing his place as Dean of the school; though none of us knew why. She came in, and just couldn't be silent about it. Dr. Creed had gone to lunch with Mr. Baugh, and they were talking about plans for the building project on the main campus. He had a $10 million dollar check, out on the table, about halfway between himself and Dr. Creed. He asked Dr. Creed what his vision for the seminary was; and Dr. Creed told him. Smaller classes, world class scholars, close relationships between teachers and students. As he spoke, the check kept moving away from him as Mr. Baugh drew it in closer to himself. Mr. Baugh told him that he wanted a seminary to take the place of SWBTS. He expected that Truett would be reaching a thousand students in no time. Well, needless to say Dr. Creed lost his place as Dean of the school; and also his vision. To this day, this is one of the lowest points in Truett's short history.

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Re: Future of CBF?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Wed May 12, 2010 9:48 pm

Bruce Gourley wrote:Ed, here is a story directly about the Callaway event. The previous link points to Daniel's comments following the event.



Ed: Thanks Bruce it seems a lot more relevant to the title of this thread. As I said nothing new in that particular set quotes from Daniel found in the first link. He has been quite consistent.
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Re: Future of CBF?

Postby Tim Dahl » Wed May 12, 2010 10:04 pm

TimB - are you sporting a beard now? I'm so jealous!!! I can't grow a beard worth anything.

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Re: Future of CBF?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu May 13, 2010 12:54 am

Tim Dahl wrote:Ed, I'm sorry you misunderstood my post. I fully take responsibility for not writing with clarity and succinctness. In no way do I desire to "out plant" the SBC. Actually, I wasn't thinking of the SBC at all in regards to the CBF future. If I made misleading statements about a desire to out plant the SBC, I truly apologize. I greatly desire to see conversations develop about the CBF in which one never encounters a word about the SBC.

Also, again I must attest to my lack of clarity in writing. My lack of mentioning revitalizing of current dead and dying churches doesn't mean that I'm against it. Not at all. However, since the questions was about the "Future of CBF," then I must disagree with you about branding. That tends to be very important when we are talking about the continued existence of a current institution. It will be because of the CBF brand, that people will want to be a part of it...or not. If the brand is about incarnating Christ in culture and church multiplication (just to name a couple), then I believe that will be a huge plus. I realize that some people may grimace at the use of a secular term, such as "brand," but I still think it is relevant..whether or not we choose to use that word, or some baptized phrase.

I really do think we miss the mark when church planting isn't a greater part of our strategy. I believe there is a great blessing when churches choose to plant other churches, and not get worried about their own enlargement. There seems to be something about helping others, both individually and corporately. God chooses to bless us when we bless others, including in the area of church planting. I also believe that the local church is just as much an organism, as it is an organization. Organisms are meant to reproduce, to "be fruitful and multiply," if you will. Yes, we are individually called to be making disciples as we go; and I also believe part of that is an effective church planting strategy. Not every church is made for every person. I would like for us to get out of a competition mindset, and into a multiplication mindset.

Tim


Ed: TIm do you also have a problem reading, nowhere did I suggest that you desired to out plant the SBC. But you do certainly seem to make church planting a priority. And the SBC places it high on their priorities. I know it is a popular idea but it is an Idea that for the most part I find wrongheaded. I have been involved in new church plants, one quite successful even after 50 years. I even have some formal seminary training in Church planting with the old HMB. Also I have observed a good deal of it from a rather close perspective. Partly in sponsoring churches. So please spare me the routine mantra. For the most part for over 55 years I have been involved in churches from 125 to 2300. Most in the 125 to 275 range. I have also been in a few very small churches 25 to 40. At our 2nd ABC-USA biennial we attended a adjunct continuing education program titled "The Small Church is Different". They certainly are . I also discovered that on my own that new small churches and Old small churches are different from one another. I am not at all persuaded that the biblical admonition to "be fruitful and multiply," applies to churches, and in fact not to all living organisms. Rats are a major problem in many places. Should we encourage their propagation? On the other hand established churches can and should add to the increase of souls in the kingdom by assisting struggling churches with funding or personnel, perhaps both.

Both of us are bur skimming the surface here. Do you have an estimate of dollars needed to establish a new church plant and have it flourish to a self sustaining entity of 150 or more within 6 to 8 years. And yes This is an arbitrary goal and time frame. On the other hand what could be done with the sane money invested in select declining churches in half the time.
No need to by a building site, Not even a building, you may have to improve the parking, do some painting and even put on a new roof, How about finding a retired music teacher willing to relocate, and work 10 hours a week for nothing. Few small churches have a good music program. How about committing to three or four years of conducting VBS even if you have to pay room and board? The two churches that we just left would be Ideal for a retired Chaplin who likes to hunt and fish, and even better if they ski. There are a very good schools in both communities. Either building could seat a hundred members. one probably has 40 to 50 real prospect and the other 70 or more. I honestly believe the personnel and talent is out there to meet the need CBF could help to locate them. and only the pastor would need to become ABC certified if they are not already. But please don't tell those folk how well you new fangled idea worked in Georgia or Florida. And before any one else says it, I am on record as saying some dying churches need to be taken off of life support.

Going back to the "brand" thing, lets be honest, what is needed is places for moderates in the south to have a place to serve I am persuaded however that erecting CBF buildings, and/or programs and heavy administrative layers Is not the only option. I do not know what has happened to them but First Baptist in Fort Myers Florida was helping two small Churches in the Everglades and one in their own county. At one point all three had significantly long histories but where in economically depressed areas. And the help even from a CBF affiliated Church kept them going. We need more of that.

And Tim D., it does not have to be either or. However I urge CBF not to pass up some real opportunities to serve people and churches that desperately need help.
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Re: Future of CBF?

Postby Neil Heath » Thu May 13, 2010 11:33 am

Timothy Bonney wrote:
Tim Dahl wrote:TimB - are you sporting a beard now? I'm so jealous!!! I can't grow a beard worth anything.

Tim


I've worn a bear for most of the last 18 years. And not to brag, but one of the reasons is that I grow one so fast that I used to shave twice on Sundays so as not to look like a bum at the evening service. However, the beard used to be black.

Wearing a bear is not as simple as it seems, either. Most ministers have had days like that, though. :)
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Re: Future of CBF?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu May 13, 2010 12:19 pm

Neil Heath wrote:
Timothy Bonney wrote:
Tim Dahl wrote:TimB - are you sporting a beard now? I'm so jealous!!! I can't grow a beard worth anything.

Tim


I've worn a bear for most of the last 18 years. And not to brag, but one of the reasons is that I grow one so fast that I used to shave twice on Sundays so as not to look like a bum at the evening service. However, the beard used to be black.

Wearing a bear is not as simple as it seems, either. Most ministers have had days like that, though. :)



Ed: Thanks Neil! :) :D :) :lol:
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