Suzii Paynter, CBF Exec. Director nominee

[Ed Pettibone]

[KeithE]

[Sandy]

Ircel Harrison has a pedigree, but as far as I can tell, his name doesn't come up in any lists of experts on the subject of attracting young people into the church. He is a professional consultant in the area of "leadership development" primarily focused in "leadership coaching" but I don't see anything in his pedigree to qualify him as an expert, or to demonstrate any expertise in the area of reaching and keeping younger people in the church. He doesn't even claim that expertise for himself. It looks like he was enough of an insider in the Tennessee Baptist Convention to have the friends he needed in CBF to make a successful career transition. Beyond that, he is clearly a CBF insider on the same level as Mason and Paynter, which clearly established the bias from which he writes.

But talking about Harrison is a diversion. He names four specific areas which CBF "must" address under its new leadership. Authentic discipleship and worship-related issues are pretty general. Is this a call, from an influential position, for CBF to drop its policy against hiring gay and lesbian employees? Is it a call to become completely welcoming and affirming? Is universalism a de-facto faith statement of the CBF?

BTW, Ed, I would be glad to list my "pedigree" for you, along with my work experience.

[Tim Bonney]

BTW, Hauro a UMC pastor can be tried for heresy but most of what is in the Book of Discipline are rules of organization and procedure. The doctrinal section of the book is pretty thin. Think of the rest of it as church bylaws for all the different kinds of church structures and agencies. If the ABC put all the bylaws for all the different church organizations in one book it would probably be a weighty as the BOD.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Sandy]

[Dave Roberts]

[Haruo]

I suppose Hell could be Heaven for a really dedicated masochist...

But anyhow, I believe (with the Quakers, if we're looking for buttresses) that every human being (indeed, all that hath life and breath) has within it that which is of God. I don't believe that the pervasiveness of sin can eliminate that. And I believe that in the judgment the chaff of the first Adam is burned away and the gold of God, of Christ, revealed.

I don't see a way to reconcile ultimate, eternal condemnation with either my belief that Jesus saves, and that God is not willing that any should be lost, and that God looked at everything he had made and pronounced it good, or my own experience of alcoholism.

But I don't think God will send anyone to hell for disagreeing with me on this... it'll all come out in the wash.



BTW, this "Universalism" subtopic is way way way off into threaddriftland, and not even particularly pertinent to the initial mention (by William) in relation to CBF. So I have started a in the General (Baptist Faith & Practice) Forum for anyone who wishes to continue this topic.

[Tim Bonney]

Hauro we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. For me if you take away the choice to follow God or not then it takes away that which is essential to being in the image of God in the first place. If some how, no matter what I believe, think, feel, or want, I am going to be persuaded to follow God against all my own judgement then I have no free will and am not an autonomous being. I can't buy that. For me that would mean God thinks less of me and not more. We don't show our love for our adult children by forcing them to live our way even if we are sure our way is right because they are adults and get to choose.

I think we put way too much emphasis on the purposes of God being heaven or hell. Being a Christian is about follow Christ, seeking to grow into the image of Christ and by God's grace hoping to be more like Christ each day. It isn't just Divine Fire Insurance. If people don't want to walk with God now why would they want to spend an eternity with God later?

Also, hell as an eternal burning fire in which people roast for eternity already has theological problems that have nothing to do with universalism but may cause people to want to be universalists because they assume Dante's view of hell is what is taught in the Bible. Eternal separation from God and eternal torment aren't necessarily the same thing despite how Christians have conflated Dante into our view of hell.

[Sandy]

[Haruo]

[Tim Bonney]

[Chris]

[Stephen Fox]

http://www.abpnews.com/blog/leadership/ ... 013-07-23/