Candle in Search of Darkness

[Dave Roberts]

Allen Bean has offered an interestng and challenging perspective on CBF after the General Assembly. I think his thoughts deserve consideration and a response from those of us with a CBF orientation. How does his voice fit with these days of redefinition?

[William Thornton]

[Big Daddy Weaver]

[Big Daddy Weaver]

[Tim Bonney]

A faith that is only about getting "divine fire insurance" isn't much of a faith.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

Ed, what I was trying to say is that a lot of evangelical faith is pushed as being about divine fire insurance. It often more about staying out of hell than it is about knowing a loving God. That's what I got as a kid out of Baptist revival services. Turn or burn, cry or fry, shake or bake.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Dave Roberts]

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

While the author mentioned homosexuality the CBF wouldn't have to change its position on homosexuality to be involved in social justice ministries to the poor and needy Sandy. The ABC does it as does the UMC and both have official positions opposing homosexuality.

[Tim Bonney]

Ed and Aaron, you both make good points. Also I think it is fair to say that the author (like myself) has been away from the CBF long enough that he is an outsider. That is both a positive and a negative to his evaluation. He is looking at the CBF as an ABCer rather than a CBF member. The ABC and CBF are much more different in structure than it would first appear at a glance. And certainly the culture and history are very different and those are things that are hard to learn from the outside.

My newbie experience as a United Methodist is that you can be taught the history, theology, and polity of a denomination but you can't be taught the subtle cultural mores that are part of an organization that even its own members don't realize are there because they take them for granted. Their way of doing things is ingrained so much in who they are that they don't realize it might need to be explained to an outsider.

If the author doesn't have a CBF perspective he does have some objectivity but he also is handicapped by really not having worked in the organization to know how it feels from the inside.

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

[Dave Roberts]

[Big Daddy Weaver]

I like Bean's bigger message that the CBF needs an antagonist. What's the antagonist? What's the social injustice that we can collectively confront together with the CBF serving as a facilitator and promoter of our efforts?

I like that part of Bean's message. HOWEVER, I'll admit Ed that you were convincing in your commentary. After I read your comments, I reread the commentary. Bean was not fair to Vestal nor to CBFers. Jim Smith was charitable in his reply.

Had he dropped that rhetoric and those unfair characterizations and focused more on the good that we're doing and the good that is still left to be done along with the need to do these things together, then well, that would have been much appreciated (and probably a different article altogether!)

Bean's daughter has a PHD in Sociology from Harvard. She researches evangelicals and teaches at the Baylor Interdisciplinary Core. She goes to my dad's church (where Julie P-R used to pastor) and is an active Democrat (she volunteered for my father-in-law's campaign to be County Judge a while back). So I know her and my wife knows her well.

That said, I don't know her father too well beyond Friends of Justice (which I discovered about 4-5 years ago, a friend of mine was serving on the Board of Directors at the time). I'm not sure where Bean has been during those years you mention or what his involvement in ABC-USA was.

He has recently written from time to time for ABP though. I think he lives in Dallas or North Texas somewhere?

Also, I haven't written much on CBF. I did the Alliance paper because there is literally nothing on the Alliance history. But I'm pretty sure that Baptist History & Heritage Society has published a couple of things on CBF. Maybe a 30-page history written by Bill Hull in one of those Baptist History pamphlet-books?

My dad gives a handful of pages to CBF in his survey of Baptist history, In Search of the New Testament Church. That was in 2008-2009. And there's a chapter on the CBF - I think - in the book edited by Glenn Jonas around that same period titled "The Baptist River"

There is certainly much more to be written on the topic. We now have books about James Dunn, Cecil Sherman and and Jimmy Allen. But someone before too many years pass needs to start doing an oral history with Daniel Vestal.

Maybe now that he's "retired" (I expect we'll see Vestal in pulpits again within a year or so) from CBF, Vestal will write a book. He might not have much time as director of that new Baugh Center though. Nonetheless, I hope someone - one of the historians in the Atlanta area - will take the time to start getting his story down on tape. His story is obviously a very important part of our story as the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.

Also, I really can't envision there being any movement any changes in the CBF right now on homosexuality. We had the Sexuality Conference. I don't know if it goes anywhere from there - at least not for the foreseeable future.

I do think that one day the policy will change. I don't think that day will be anytime soon. I think we're going to have a year or two of real transition. Nothing big is going to happen between now and next year's Assembly.

Those who want to see change would be wise not to push any changes at this point. With no leader in place, no #2 either, we're a little vulnerable. So, it is my hope that the Texas Baptist brethren like CBF of Texas take a breather and not worry outloud so much. Also, it is my hope that we ignore voices in our midst who are not CBF. One pastor who was quoted EXTENSIVELY in the Baptist Standard article on the future of the CBF is - as far as I can tell - not even associated with the CBF!

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Dahl]

[Sandy]

[Big Daddy Weaver]

Yea, I was referring to Evans.

I've seen no proof of his past involvement in the CBF. You are right, his church isn't affiliated.

That Friday night, I think - actually I know - there were some who showed up to hear Vestal's final sermon as Coordinator and greet him afterwards. I know of a few BGCT folks who were there at the CBF for the 1st time. In the case of the folks I spoke with, they were invited by one of Vestal's kids. A BGCTer here at Baylor was present with his wife (who had gone to high school with Vestal).

Of all the CBF state organizations out there, Texas might be the most invisible. I'll stop there.

[Dave Roberts]

[Ed Pettibone]