CBF Leadership Departures...

[Tim Dahl]

I read this article about Steve Graham leaving his CBF National position to head up the OK/KS State CBF organization. Then, at the end of the article, there is a link to another article about Ben McDade heading over to Baptist Today along with other people leaving their positions. It mentions quite a few people, actually.

I remember being told by Nash that he was going to McAfee at the Gathering here in Fort Worth. That made me sad. Now, it seems that quite a few more top level people are leaving. It makes me wonder about who will be replacing them. Is this where we get more people like Colleen Burroughs with a pro-gay agenda, or others like Daniel Vestal?

I know that I've been told that there isn't a movement underway in the CBF to make it swing more to the left. But, with this many upper level folks moving, there is a great opportunity for something like that to happen.

If anything, there certainately seems to be a widening vacume at the upper levels of CBF leadership.

Tim

[Dave Roberts]

I have known Steve Graham and worked with him for several years in the IME. I'm not surprised at his heading back to the Midwest. I don't see this time as one at all for a pro-gay agenda shift. As is often true, there is a great deal of uncertainty when the person who brought you into an organization retires. I know this first hand.

I am doing an interim, and we are losing our associate this month. When the senior pastor who brought him was gone, he began a search. That, I suspect, is what is happening with those closely tied to Dan Vestal.

[Ed Pettibone]

I read this article about Steve Graham leaving his CBF National position to head up the OK/KS State CBF organization. Then, at the end of the article, there is a link to another article about Ben McDade heading over to Baptist Today along with other people leaving their positions. It mentions quite a few people, actually.

I remember being told by Nash that he was going to McAfee at the Gathering here in Fort Worth. That made me sad. Now, it seems that quite a few more top level people are leaving. It makes me wonder about who will be replacing them. Is this where we get more people like Colleen Burroughs with a pro-gay agenda, or others like Daniel Vestal?

I know that I've been told that there isn't a movement underway in the CBF to make it swing more to the left. But, with this many upper level folks moving, there is a great opportunity for something like that to happen.

If anything, there certainately seems to be a widening vacume at the upper levels of CBF leadership.

Tim

Ed: Tim D., I do not know Steve Graham, I couldn't position him if it paid. But most if not all of the recent departures and announced departures who I do know, to some extent with the exception of Vestal, I would judge as to the left of the CBF center. But I do not think that has a lot to do with why any one is leaving. I think it has more to do with anticipated restructuring in which there will over the next three years, be fewer specialized leadership positions. Therefore some are finding places to serve out their careers where there is more chance of permanency and fewer unknowns. I know some of them are a bit weary of time added in recent years in airports. And as state CBF organizations have strengthened the is less need of centralized National programs. In other words I believe we are seeing the flexibility that was built into CBF from the beginning at work. The only new position I might expect to see in Atlanta in the next few years would that of an IT guru who has a strong religious back ground but probably not a Seminary Grad. I could hope the new National coordinator has a background as a religious educator rather than a pulpiteer .

BTW, I think it is inaccurate to say that Colleen Burroughs has a homosexual agenda. Her agenda as I have been acquainted with she and David since the early 90's, is to have a solid Christian camping system that provides an educational program designed to enable youth to become the future of the Church. I do not agree with her expressed position on dropping CBF's present hiring policy. But I see that as a misguided ideology of her generation much more so than an "agenda". Last year at the Mercer Preaching Consortium, when I broached the idea of her becoming the New CBF Coordinator she replied "But Ed, I have a job, one that I am quite happy with".

[Tim Dahl]

Dave and Ed,

Thank you for the reply. I'm sure you are right. This seems to be a time of tranistion, of one season ending and another beginning. I also like the idea of the state organizations becoming more of a player in the CBF future. Granted, that probably won't happen in TX; but you never know.

Thanks again for the reply.

Tim

[Sandy]

Vestal, Nash, Hamrick, McDade, Graham. Wow. I can't imagine what the thread of discussion would be like here if that many key, higher up personnel were all departing from the SBC at the same time. Of course, in Baptist life, when the head of an organization departs, it's a signal to update the resume and start circulating it. Perhaps there is some eye on budget giving as well. I've been in situations where a budget depending on a particular level of income is set, but the income doesn't meet the expectation. That's when bottom line expenses have to be cut, like personnel. I know a lot of people who work within the various structures of Baptist life who often have to consider a job working at a place where there is a different, more reliable budget stream.

With that much of a vacuum in high level leadership, there will be those among the more "progressive" leaders in CBF who will see this as an opportunity to move the fellowship in what they see as a more progressive direction. This is a small organization, with a very small core of individuals in leadership. Most of them are Baptists who know how to maneuver, and get the maximum result from the influence they bring to bear. I'm sure that, under the surface, the search committee to replace Daniel Vestal must be quite an interesting experience. Being "progressive" is a mark of an intellectual spirituality for most of these people, and they will come to the point where they will either make an attempt to move the fellowship closer to their vision for it, or they will leave and form their own organization. They've expressed contempt for the SBC and its view they call "anti-homosexual." They have a lot of influence on the coordinating council, and among the officers, many who share their view. They've taken a very typical Baptist denominational approach to effecting change by hosting a conference with a strong, intellectual agenda that helped them gauge their support level. In the leadership vacuum, they'll move quickly.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

Nash (a good family friend) came from academia and is returning to academia. The timing of his departure is not significant. Positions in Baptist Higher Ed for someone like him - with that level of experience - don't open up every year or every other year.

I had dinner with Hamrick at the Dunn-Leonard shindig in Winston-Salem earlier this year. He's of retirement age and ready to move on to the next chapter.

McDade is departing for what sounds like a new and exciting challenge with Johnny P. at Baptists Today.

I don't know Steve Graham, can't comment on that.

The timing is just a matter of coincidence and convenience from my vantage point.

And I agree with Ed, it's not fair to claim that Colleen has a "pro-gay" agenda - not that there's anything wrong with being "pro-gay" but all Colleen did was suggest that the policy banning hiring of gays needed to be changed.

She didn't call on the CBF to adopt some official position on homosexuality as the Alliance of Baptists has done. Frankly, I'm not aware of her views on the subject at all. So, to suggest she has some broad agenda on gay-related issues is unfair.

What are you experiences with the state organization here Tim? My CBF friends in the area aren't entirely sure what CBF of Texas does? When there is a meeting, I know some who complain that they only heard about it after the fact. Aside from a email newsletter, I don't think CBF of Texas does much in the way of communications.

That said, I'd certainly love to get paid what the head of CBF TX makes. I bet you would too!

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Thanks Aaron, for the back up about Colleen.

But since when does CBF Texas have some one designated as the "head"? I have an idea that James Dunn might resist that term for the position.

BTW, In round figures what does the Texas CBF Coordinator make and is Rick McClatchy still in that position? I didn't see him in Tampa last year and we didn't make it to Texas this year. We first met Rick at a Meeting of what was then the North Central Region and he was the featured speaker, he was then employed in Oklahoma as their CBF Coordinator. That Meeting was at ABC's Judson College (now Judson University) in Elgin, IL, near Chicago.

And Speaking of Terry Hamrick His book Gives a good bit of insight to this thread

Leadership in Constant Change by Terry Hamrick Price:$ 14.95
Change. It just keeps coming. The question is how will leaders respond? What can you do to help your church when old ways no longer work? Use adaptive leadership principles to help discover God’s vision for your church.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

I'm not positive. This is my best memory - I'd have to go find my papers from the 2011 CBF in Tampa. But the entire compensation package is over 90K (if I'm remembering correctly).

I definitely don't have a problem with 90K. But, I expect for a salary like that, you ought to have a visible presence in the state of Texas. CBF of Texas is not what I'd call visible - and that very well may be on purpose.

Other states with many CBF churches like Virginia and North Carolina have strong state organizations.

[Dave Roberts]

I'm not positive. This is my best memory - I'd have to go find my papers from the 2011 CBF in Tampa. But the entire compensation package is over 90K (if I'm remembering correctly).

I definitely don't have a problem with 90K. But, I expect for a salary like that, you ought to have a visible presence in the state of Texas. CBF of Texas is not what I'd call visible - and that very well may be on purpose.

Other states with many CBF churches like Virginia and North Carolina have strong state organizations.

I can tell you that salaries in VA don't equal those in TX.

[Timothy Bonney]

I don't have any concern about what anyone is making in the CBF but BDW you might clarify if you mean Salary or Compensation Package. If you mean Compensation Package that usually means salary, insurance, retirement, reimbursements for business expenses, continuing education, etc. In some positions that comes to 40-50% of the salary. So you could be telling me that the coordinator is going to make $90K in Salary or you might actually be saying he is make more like 50K in salary and 40K in benefits. That would be a whole different animal.

[Ed Pettibone]

I don't have any concern about what anyone is making in the CBF but BDW you might clarify if you mean Salary or Compensation Package. If you mean Compensation Package that usually means salary, insurance, retirement, reimbursements for business expenses, continuing education, etc. In some positions that comes to 40-50% of the salary. So you could be telling me that the coordinator is going to make $90K in Salary or you might actually be saying he is make more like 50K in salary and 40K in benefits. That would be a whole different animal.

Ed: Aaron did say " I'm not positive. This is my best memory - I'd have to go find my papers from the 2011 CBF in Tampa. But the entire compensation package is over 90K (if I'm remembering correctly)."

[Timothy Bonney]

Ed: Aaron did say " I'm not positive. This is my best memory - I'd have to go find my papers from the 2011 CBF in Tampa. But the entire compensation package is over 90K (if I'm remembering correctly)."

That seems more likely. I just did the math quickly on my compensation package and the benefits are indeed about 40% of the package. Insurance is extremely high now so the percentage keeps creeping up. And if they included the cost of his travel expenses, much of what he'd do in the job, his salary would be even less of the 90K.

Given Graham's previous pastoral experience I'd not be surprised if he didn't make more pastoring than in this position.

[Sandy]

I can tell you that salaries in VA don't equal those in TX.

In Baptist church or denominational work, there are probably not a whole lot of other places where they do. Texas churches pay pastors and staff pretty well in most cases, even the smaller congregations do. You have to pay denominational staff pretty high to keep them from heading back to the pastorate.

I've been around long enough to know how this game works pretty well. In spite of what might be somewhat obvious reasons for departures, if you're in Baptist denominational service, or even in local church ministry, you always have an eye on the horizon so that you can anticipate what is coming down the road, because change will have an effect on you. This could all be coincidental, and then, with an almost 35% drop in budget receipts in a three year period, and the departure of the exec who was one of the original founders of the organization, it could be that these guys, who were pretty high up and deeply invovled, have seen something coming down the pike. Things will change.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

I agree that those leaders who are now gone are probably aware of the kinds of changes and cuts that will have to be made in the future which would have an impact on them in some form or fashion.

I was referring to total compensation package which (again if I remember correctly) was divided into about four categories: salary, housing, retirement, health insurance.

I'm pretty sure other work-related expenses were counted elsewhere on the budget.

I guess I've just wondered - and I'm not alone - if there's 90K in value in that position when the CBF of TX organization is barely visible, if it's visible at all.

I remember filling out a card at the CBF in Tampa, CBF of Texas was asking folks to become more involved in CBF of Texas. I filled it out. Got a brief e-mail from the Coordinator who said someone would be in contact. Never heard a peep, two years later.

[Timothy Bonney]

I guess I've just wondered - and I'm not alone - if there's 90K in value in that position when the CBF of TX organization is barely visible, if it's visible at all.

Well it isn't as much as I know a lot of folks are making in Senior pastorates in medium size churches (Baptist or Methodists you pick.) So it all depends on what level of experience the job takes. 90K total compensation isn't in the tall grass. I'm sure many Baptist pastors from large churches are making much more.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

Yea, I understand that. And I'm not one of those who is opposed to generous compensation packages.

The difference in this case is that the pastors you mention serve a church that has weekly worship services and a host of other activities. I'm not sure many know exactly what CBF of Texas does given their lack of visibility (invisible even in the Baptist Bubble where I reside).

[Timothy Bonney]

Yea, I understand that. And I'm not one of those who is opposed to generous compensation packages.

The difference in this case is that the pastors you mention serve a church that has weekly worship services and a host of other activities. I'm not sure many know exactly what CBF of Texas does given their lack of visibility (invisible even in the Baptist Bubble where I reside).

Well, yes I guess I don't exactly know what CBF regional organizations do in any state.

[Ed Pettibone]

Yea, I understand that. And I'm not one of those who is opposed to generous compensation packages.

The difference in this case is that the pastors you mention serve a church that has weekly worship services and a host of other activities. I'm not sure many know exactly what CBF of Texas does given their lack of visibility (invisible even in the Baptist Bubble where I reside).

Well, yes I guess I don't exactly know what CBF regional organizations do in any state.

Ed: First, I would ask Aaron, how much are you involved in Texas CBF? I generally avoid commenting on large compensation packages. It is the many that are too small, be it what ever larger Baptist group, they are associated with that concern me.

And I hasten to add that Trudy's package is quite adequate. On the other hand I am aware of at least one pastor who along with his wife have decent retirement incomes and he has no set compensation.

And Tim I would ask if you where ever involved in either a state or a regional CBF organization?

Each state or Regional group is autonomous they do what they can with the resources they have.

Some in my opinion do better at that than others.

I have never seen their budget but I imagine Texas' is fairly well endowed. And the couple CBF churches in Texas that I have worshiped with unrelated to a CBF meeting seem to feel that The state group is quite beneficial to them. We visited one church in Virginia which I sensed might be CBF so I asked the S.S. teacher after class and he grimed from ear to ear and said I guess it shows. Because the motels refer a lot of visitors who, we get folk who are Pro CBF, know nothing about CBF, and those who are anti CBF , so we sort of limit our CBF talk to Wednesday night and small group home folk activities . But a substantial part of our budget goes to CBF through the state office. Having seen copies of Baptist today in a few pace on a South Carolina church I asked if they where CBF and the individual said about 75%, but I am not one of them, so I let the subject drop. When both Trudy and I where in school at SBTS 90-92 and 96-98, we attended CBF related churches and I attended a half dozen CBF meetings local and state And had some great traing sessions presented by the State CBF organization. In both The Central region (then North Central) and now the BFNE Region the focus was and is largely support, letting each other know we where not alone. And hearing from and breaking bread with the National CBF office. Here in the NE our budget is heavily Supplemented by the national office and by a couple partner state groups namely Alabama and Oklahoma. I was not really much aware of the budget in the Central region. We simply gave because we liked what we experienced and asked no questions. That may have been because I had long been a fan of Carolyn Wetherford Crumpler who is is in that region, living in Cincinnati as we did. In Florida my home church at the time, (my home church is where I attend), hosted the first Statewide CBF Assembly in Florida and the present CBF National interim Coordinator, Pat Anderson was the featured speaker.

I think perhaps the best thing that the State and Regional CBF organizations have done for me has been to help me get over 4 decades plus of having been a Southern Baptist.

Trudy says when we first met she had a feeling that I was more Southern Baptist than Christian.
And I say until about the time we met on July 4th 1989, I didn't know there was a possibility of there being a difference.

[Timothy Bonney]

And Tim I would ask if you where ever involved in either a state or a regional CBF organization?

No Ed, I never had the chance. That is why I said that I don't know what they do. There isn't really a CBF organization in Iowa so even when I was serving in Des Moines near the only CBF church in the state I never had a connection to it. Please enlighten us as to what functions the regional body performs if you like.

[Ed Pettibone]

And Tim I would ask if you where ever involved in either a state or a regional CBF organization?

No Ed, I never had the chance. That is why I said that I don't know what they do. There isn't really a CBF organization in Iowa so even when I was serving in Des Moines near the only CBF church in the state I never had a connection to it. Please enlighten us as to what functions the regional body performs if you like.

Ed: Tim there is no single model for CBF State or regional bodies. Did you bother to read above, where I said "Each state or Regional group is autonomous, they do what they can with the resources they have." And note I refer to state and regional bodies. Your use of Region alone was a tip off of what you experience was. In the South, each state has a CBF group and in the S. West, of the states that had large numbers of SBC churches some have their own state group. Some are in a regional group. In the North, Mid west and East There are regions only.
Like Iowa, there are not many CBF churches, In the state of NY. Four to be exact, one in Buffalo 257 miles west from us and the anther in Monticello 130 miles to the south of us, and two in the NYC area 150 plus miles. Trudy and I are in an ABC-USA Church not CBF .There is one other fellow from the NY lower tier who attends BFNE meeting but is not in a CBF church. a;though he is a CBF endorsed College Chaplin, BFNE draws from PA, NY, VT, NH, ME, MA,CT & NJ. Mostly we get together for fellowship and information twice a year, and almost always have a speaker from the CBF national office or one of the Strong state organizations in for a workshop. Last year our church hosted the spring meeting and John Pierce was here from Baptist Today at my invitation. I hope to have him back on day to speak to the NYS-ABC Board of Missions. CBF national Provides some support for some of the CBF church in our region including the two in NYC. We have a core group of approximately 20 and some who attend infrequently or not at all but who do provide financial support educational expertise. Some are associated with fine old Educational institutions of the NE, Dartmoth, Yale, Harvard and others.

And Tim when you where still in Indiana CBF Folk in that state Joined up with CBF of Kentucky.

Hopefully some of the participants here will chime in with what their state or region is doing. Flick we do need a report from the expanded OK CBF.

[Timothy Bonney]

Ed thanks for the info. I did read what you had to say above. From the way you describe the organization it sounds like regional or state bodies do a variety of things. I think, now that you mention Indiana and Kentucky, that the lone church in Iowa, Ashworth Road Baptist Church, had connected up with the Missouri CBF at times. But again, I don't have connections with Ashworth Road other than a passing acquaintance with their former pastor who later followed me at FBC Des Moines.

Missouri is the only CBF organization I knew much if anything about because my home church growing up, Kirkwood Baptist Church, had members involved in that organization.

Most of the existence of the CBF I was in the ABC. Over the years I occasionally sent contributions to the CBF. But I never was involved in the organization.

When the CBF was first coming together I was a young pastor in a small Baptist church in Illinois. At the time CBF had no help for placement in CBF churches and most of the participants looked like large churches and their pastors. That isn't a criticism. Someone had to get the thing started. Also, at the time when I decided to leave SBC work I didn't see the CBF as a viable option for me because the CBF chose to stay within the SBC fold and I wasn't willing to do that.

During that time I had conversations with the UMC, the ABC, and the DoC. The pastor who was talking to me in the UMC at that time did a really bad job of representing the UMC and scared me off or I might have been a United Methodist years sooner. I was just getting into conversations with the DoC when I had a very good meeting with an Area Minister in Indiana who really impressed me and so that is the direction I chose to go.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Thanks Tim for that reply. I do want to correct one impression.

Where you say "Also, at the time when I decided to leave SBC work I didn't see the CBF as a viable option for me because the CBF chose to stay within the SBC fold and I wasn't willing to do that".

It is unfortunate that you didn't talk to some CBF folk and communicate that. Some folk in CBF had already left the SBC when CBF was formed. Others left as soon after the formation of CBF. Others as their they could discuss it with their churches. Some CBF affiliated Churches indeed stay in the SBC until this day. Others stayed only until all of the older SBC committed folk died off or until they where convinced that CBF is not a "bunch of liberal heretics" as claimed by the SBC'S Baptist press. You could have been dually alined ABC/CBF as where/are some. Illinois and Indiana ABC-USA regions have generally had CBF Friendly field ministers and State Executives too the best of my knowledge. I will admit that some CBF Folk in the northern regions seem to have a rebel flag mentality. And I am persuaded that is why CBF has not grown up here. I will also confess that had he not had several years of ABC-USA experience after leaving SBTS I would not have considered voting for our new NYS-ABC Executive Minister. I have yet to discuss with him, his feelings about CBF. Their are not enough folk on our Board of Missions, who understand CBF, for me to have brought it up when Jim and Debbie interviewed with us after recommendation of the Search committee.

[Timothy Bonney]

It has been a lot of years Ed. But I think I was aware that some churches were leaving the SBC. I had a more radical view of the whole situation. I wanted to see the CBF break away entirely. At that time I was very angry with the behavior of the SBC I there wasn't anything that was going to get me to be in a church that maintained any SBC affiliation.

[Sandy]

http://www.abpnews.com/ministry/organiz ... CcmkaO3PyI

ABP's and Baptist Today's take on the departures, with one more added.

I was a member of what is arguably one of Texas' most visible, inner-circle CBF congregations for something like 13 years. I do not recall there ever being mention made of the state CBF organization. Even though the church eventually severed its ties to the SBC, though it still had a number of members who contributed to the CP, the BGCT was the overwhelming influence and denominational connection of the church, even before it left the SBC. The national CBF got some attention, the state organization wasn't on the radar screen.

More and more, in spite of the lack of mention of it, this looks like a reaction to shrinking budget giving and the coming shift of emphasis and direction when Vestal steps down. The people who are leaving are in a position to observe where the budget receipts are coming from, and would have intimate knowledge of why they are dropping. They know the numbers, the churches, and the trends.

I shared Timothy's view, back when I first became involved with CBF, that it should break away from the SBC entirely and encourage as many churches as it could to get off the fence and follow along. Dual affiliation hasn't worked to their advantage. Many of the churches that originally supported both groups stopped their CBF giving when there was a pastor change. Several state conventions have forced churches to make a choice by disfellowshipping congregations that support both groups, and most of those churches drop their CBF support when that happens. It might be a smaller organization, perhaps as many as 600 or 700 churches altogether, but it wouldn't have stretched its resources too far. The other thing they should have done was a more deliberate, and better funded effort at church planting. The more churches it creates on its own that haven't been SBC affiliated, the better off it will be.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Sandy what you say points up the truth of what I have been saying; There is No singular model of state organization for CBF.

When you write "I was a member of what is arguably one of Texas' most visible, inner-circle CBF congregations for something like 13 years. I do not recall there ever being mention made of the state CBF organization. Even though the church eventually severed its ties to the SBC, though it still had a number of members who contributed to the CP, the BGCT was the overwhelming influence and denominational connection of the church, even before it left the SBC. The national CBF got some attention, the state organization wasn't on the radar screen."

I am of the opinion that you may have been to close to the forest to see the trees. That "Inner-circle of CBF" may have in fact been the State CBF of Texas at the time. OR it may have been but a set of "CBF wheels" attached to the chassis called the BGCT. Some times working with other sets of Wheels such as "the Texas Baptist Commited" later to develop in to a national organization called Mainstream Baptist. And then when I Texas I hear of other pieces of the Baptist tapestry. Please forgive my mixing of metaphors but to an outsider Texas Baptists are close to undefinable.

Ed: My second National CBF assembly was in Texas (Houston?) about 1997 when CBF was but 6 years old. Now, you can not tell me that All of those Texas folk had no organization. And that was in you 13 year span. My first Assembly was in Louisville the year before. I was involved with local transportation. Including this year back in Texas (Again), I have only missed three since then.

I make no claim for understanding TEXAS BAPTISTS they remind me of Johny Cash's Cadillac in "One piece at a time" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4pAwosnIQE But it does seem that Texas is more important than Baptist down there. Money and power seem to be more important than about any where else I have been Some where in all of that is a genuine Love of Jesus But they seem to still do a lot of infighting for a right hand seat in Glory.