Go Covenant Baptists

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Go Covenant Baptists

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:20 pm

Mercer Eliminates the Duke Methodist Blue Devils from March Madness!!!!!
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Re: Go Covenant Baptists

Postby Neil Heath » Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:18 pm

I confess I didn't think they could do it, but they did! I'm proud to be a Mercerian, as always, but especially proud of the team.

The university gave unbelievable support to the team, too. Our local paper says they created their own home court advantage in Duke's backyard by taking 6 busloads of students there. They gave students a seat on the bus, a courtside ticket, and a motel room for $25, and there was a sea of orange as a result. And of course there were many faculty and community people who made the drive over. People who were there said the Mercer section stood up for the entire game.

And here in Macon the school closed a street beside campus and hosted an outdoor party attended by hundreds who watched the game on a big Jumbotron screen.

I've never seen a stronger display of school support and spirit!
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Re: Go Covenant Baptists

Postby Sandy » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:13 pm

I didn't expect Duke to go very far in the tournament this year, but I didn't expect that Mercer would be the team to knock them off.

As far as the Baptist-Methodist thing goes, I think you've got more in the way of historical ties than actual affiliation, at least as far as Duke is concerned. The university's website mentions historical ties to the UMC, but calls the school a "non-sectarian research university." It's history states that it was founded by both Methodists and Quakers, and its demographic profile shows that it actually has more students enrolled who claim affiliation with a Baptist church than with the UMC.

Mercer claims Baptist roots but not Baptist affiliation, according to its website. The trustee board is independently chosen, there is no oversight or control of initiatives by a Baptist body, and the majority of the students are not from Baptist churches. The only part of the school, according to its website, that is Baptist affiliated is the McAfee School of Theology, which receives scholarship funding from CBF in a partnership arrangement that does not involve trustee oversight.

Exciting game, as Mercer now looks to try to beat Tennessee. But not really a Baptist-Methodist thing.
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Re: Go Covenant Baptists

Postby Tim Bonney » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:15 am

I believe Duke Divinity School is still affilated with the UMC. United Methodists, for the most part, have much looser ties to their schools than the SBC does. It is similar to the way ABC seminaries are related to the ABC. They are affilated with but not run by the denomination.

Glad I didn't play bracketology this year. I'd have bet on Duke to go farther.
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Re: Go Covenant Baptists

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:00 pm

Sandy wrote:I didn't expect Duke to go very far in the tournament this year, but I didn't expect that Mercer would be the team to knock them off.

As far as the Baptist-Methodist thing goes, I think you've got more in the way of historical ties than actual affiliation, at least as far as Duke is concerned. The university's website mentions historical ties to the UMC, but calls the school a "non-sectarian research university." It's history states that it was founded by both Methodists and Quakers, and its demographic profile shows that it actually has more students enrolled who claim affiliation with a Baptist church than with the UMC.

Mercer claims Baptist roots but not Baptist affiliation, according to its website. The trustee board is independently chosen, there is no oversight or control of initiatives by a Baptist body, and the majority of the students are not from Baptist churches. The only part of the school, according to its website, that is Baptist affiliated is the McAfee School of Theology, which receives scholarship funding from CBF in a partnership arrangement that does not involve trustee oversight.

Exciting game, as Mercer now looks to try to beat Tennessee. But not really a Baptist-Methodist thing.


Ed: Sandy, If indeed you searched the Mercer website, It seems as if you go out of your way to make it look as if Mercer has has forsaken their namesake. Here is a cut and paste from that website.: Mercer University is one of America’s oldest and most distinctive institutions of higher learning, offering rigorous programs that span the undergraduate liberal arts to doctoral-level degrees. Founded by early 19th century Baptists, Mercer — while no longer formally affiliated with the Baptist denomination — remains committed to an educational environment that embraces the historic Baptist principles of intellectual and religious freedom, while affirming values that arise from a Judeo-Christian understanding of the world.

As Part of that commitment Trudy and I heard President William Underwood announce at his first Mercer Preaching Conference, after assuming that post, the agreement with ABC-USA to host our vast archives at the Mercer Atlanta Campus. We may get an opportunity to visit those archives if attend a 2nd 200 year Celebration of the Judson's Landing in Burma, this November, at the Mercer Camous in Atlanta. We Already have reservations to attend one such celebration hosted by ABC-USA , during the Missions conference at Green Lake, Wisconsin in July. It could be interesting to attend both . I Believe they also house the BH&HS Archives which are I think primarily SBC history.

Fox was on target with the name of his post, Mercer's President Underwood was one of the Conveners of the Initial New Baptist Covenant gathering at The World Congress Center in Atlanta.
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Re: Go Covenant Baptists

Postby Sandy » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:40 pm

Ed Pettibone wrote: Founded by early 19th century Baptists, Mercer — while no longer formally affiliated with the Baptist denomination — remains committed to an educational environment that embraces the historic Baptist principles of intellectual and religious freedom, while affirming values that arise from a Judeo-Christian understanding of the world.


Let me emphasize these words from your citation of the website. no longer formally affiliated with the Baptist denomination

I interpret "no longer formally affiliated with the Baptist denomination" to mean that the university's trustees and leadership has made a conscious and deliberate choice to separate itself from a mission and purpose that is distinctively Baptist, to one that has appeal to a non-Baptist constituency. That's certainly the gist of the website's message to prospective students.

Of course, Baptist institutions of higher learning all have varied types of "affiliation" with the various conventions and bodies related to their mission and purpose. Most schools that remain denominationally affiliated have a mission and purpose that is linked to that of the denominational body, whether it is training ministers and missionaries, or providing an education in which the denomination's understanding of Biblical principles is integrated into the curriculum. Historically, that has generally meant that the denominational body provides the school's governing leadership.
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Re: Go Covenant Baptists

Postby Neil Heath » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:40 pm

Actually Ga. Baptists voted to separate from Mercer, not the other way around. The blame for the move rests with the denomination.

Onthe NCAA front, Mercer just lost to Tenn. But they took 10 buses of students to this one. After the game we could see the team applauding their fans for unmatched support every step of the way.
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Re: Go Covenant Baptists

Postby Sandy » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:46 pm

It is my understanding that the story of Mercer's separation from Georgia Baptists is similar to that of several other schools in recent years. First, the move to "protect" the school's "academic freedom" by removing the convention's ability to choose its trustees. Then, distancing the school's mission and purpose from that of providing higher education in a context that reflects the convention's beliefs and values, and provides theological education for its ministers and missionaries. Ultimately, the convention begins to question why it is financially supporting an institution that no longer conforms to the relationship it once had, and presto! The school can walk away, blame the convention for the separation, and get exactly what it wanted, which was to be set free from what they perceive as the limiting effects of their Baptist affiliation.

Sorry for the loss to Tennessee, though I doubt that will do much to dampen the enthusiasm from beating Duke, which will last through several seasons, and will be something that everyone talks about for a long time.
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Re: Go Covenant Baptists

Postby Ed Pettibone » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:25 am

Sandy wrote:
Ed Pettibone wrote: Founded by early 19th century Baptists, Mercer — while no longer formally affiliated with the Baptist denomination — remains committed to an educational environment that embraces the historic Baptist principles of intellectual and religious freedom, while affirming values that arise from a Judeo-Christian understanding of the world.


Let me emphasize these words from your citation of the website. no longer formally affiliated with the Baptist denomination

I interpret "no longer formally affiliated with the Baptist denomination" to mean that the university's trustees and leadership has made a conscious and deliberate choice to separate itself from a mission and purpose that is distinctively Baptist, to one that has appeal to a non-Baptist constituency. That's certainly the gist of the website's message to prospective students.

Of course, Baptist institutions of higher learning all have varied types of "affiliation" with the various conventions and bodies related to their mission and purpose. Most schools that remain denominationally affiliated have a mission and purpose that is linked to that of the denominational body, whether it is training ministers and missionaries, or providing an education in which the denomination's understanding of Biblical principles is integrated into the curriculum. Historically, that has generally meant that the denominational body provides the school's governing leadership.


Sandy, You are being quite disingenuous when you write "Let me emphasize these words from your citation of the website. no longer formally affiliated with the Baptist denomination "

W/O either beginning or completing their statement as thay do on the website, just as I cut and pasted it. [quote] Founded by early 19th century Baptists, Mercer — while no longer formally affiliated with the Baptist denomination — remains committed to an educational environment that embraces the historic Baptist principles of intellectual and religious freedom, while affirming values that arise from a Judeo-Christian understanding of the world. [quote/]

This is not the first time you have misinterpreted what other have said but this looks to me like a deliberate misinterpretation. When you say "I interpret "no longer formally affiliated with the Baptist denomination" to mean that the university's trustees and leadership has made a conscious and deliberate choice to separate itself from a mission and purpose that is distinctively Baptist, to one that has appeal to a non-Baptist constituency. That's certainly the gist of the website's message to prospective students." Let me ask How do you jump from the discontinuance of a formal relationship with the denomination to making "a conscious and deliberate choice to separate itself from a mission and purpose that is distinctively Baptist, to one that has appeal to a non-Baptist constituency."?

Would you name for me a single College or University presently affiliated with the SBC that does not attempt to appeal to both Baptist and non Baptist. All three So. Baptist colleges and the SBC Seminary that I attended off and on between 1956 and and 64 made a, effort to attract a diverse student body ( that is the colleges made such an effort as long as the the interested students where white} The Seminary did have a degree of racial diversity. When I was there in 56 -57 we even had a few Catholic and Jewish students . Plus some 30 + denominations. When I returned in January of 1990 Southern no longer had any obvious Jewish or Catholic Students. The 89-91 Catalog list 583 Colleges, Universities and Seminaries previously attended by the 2122 regular students enrolled 1n 1989. The schools represemt a wide spectrum from Bob Jones University to Princeton.
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Re: Go Covenant Baptists

Postby Sandy » Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:21 am

It's not disingenuous, Ed. "Affiliated" means that the school is in a formal relationship with a denomination, where there is a connection between the school's mission and purpose, and that of the denomination. Historically, that involves a level of support from the denominational constituency, and in most cases, the denomination provides direction and leadership through trustee selection. For the schools, generally the connection in the mission and purpose has been to provide training to potential ministers, missionaries and other church leadership. For some denominations, "affiliated" involves a different type of relationship but what I've described has been the pattern for Baptist colleges, universities and seminaries. That does not preclude the school's attraction for students of other backgrounds. But when a school states that it is "no longer affiliated" with a denominational body, that is a statement to be taken at face value. The statement you cited from Mercer tells me that it was founded by Baptists, is no longer affiliated with a Baptist denominational body, but retains some of the broader influence from a Judeo-Christian background.
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Re: Go Covenant Baptists

Postby Ed Pettibone » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:46 am

Ed: Sandy Affiliated meand
Affiliated - Merriam-Webster Online
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/affiliated
Merriam‑Webster
closely associated with another typically in a dependent or subordinate position


Mercer is saying we are no longer in either a dependant or subordinate position to the denomination.
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Re: Go Covenant Baptists

Postby Ed Pettibone » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:47 am

Ed: Sandy Affiliated means
Affiliated - Merriam-Webster Online
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/affiliated
Merriam‑Webster
closely associated with another typically in a dependent or subordinate position


Mercer has said we are no longer in either a dependant or subordinate position to the denomination. We answer to God alone.
Last edited by Ed Pettibone on Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Go Covenant Baptists

Postby Neil Heath » Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:30 am

If I'm not mistaken, Mercer's board of trustees has always been independent of Ga. Baptist control, since Mercer is older than the GBC. They had a cooperative relationship in the naming of trustees, but were not legally bound to do so.

The GBC was quite frustrated by the fact that they could not control the membership of the trustee board. That's the only thing that saved Mercer from a fundamentalist takeover that has already happened at the other Ga. Baptist colleges for which I am extremely grateful.
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Re: Go Covenant Baptists

Postby Sandy » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:30 pm

I have no problem with a state convention body that gets to elect trustees in exchange for financial support, and a relationship which opens the door to a constituency that provides students and millions of dollars in contributions to a university or college. It's not just the budget money that the state convention provides, which is a small portion of a school budget, especially these days. I don't know about Mercer, but when the Tennessee Baptist Convention settled its court case with Belmont University, it was estimated that the convention and the school's Baptist constituency had contributed about 80% of the total value of the school, though the school was only ordered to pay back about $50 million over the course of a decade. I know that at my alma mater, most of the endowment, and most of the facilities and buildings were gifted to the school by faithful Southern Baptists, who expected the school to reflect their denomination's beliefs and values.
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Again in the face of Legitimate History and Truett Cathy

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:33 pm

Sandy acts as if nothing happened in Baptist life in the last 30 years, to wit residues of the the John Birch Society brothelizing a grand tradition for Pressler and Jesse Helms right wing politics.

Sandy should know by now, even the conservative Truett Cathy, on the board of trustees when Ga fundies of Lee Roberts stripe were attacking President Kirby Godsey; Cathy grew nauseous and stood by Godsey.

As for Baptist affiliation, there is no more authenic Baptist on the planet today than Mercer Pres Underwood; see Mother Jones piece on Baylor of 2004.

And Paul Harvey's Moses Jesus and the Trickster is a strong a Testament, a Third Testament if you will, I've seen recently, and that from a Mercer lecture series.

So Sandy can keep on spouting his well articulated ignorance if he wishes, but Worthen, Giberson and Stephens to tip the iceberg have convinced me for some time he is startin to believe his own delusions.
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Re: Fox is on target

Postby Ed Pettibone » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:29 am

S Fox "As for Baptist affiliation, there is no more authenic Baptist on the planet today than Mercer Pres Underwood;"
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